Are Bitsa’s Fake?

maltingsaudio

Just seen @TTony  pinned post at the top of the classified about fakes, now whilst I applaud the sentiment, I wondered what the collectives thoughts were with regards to bitsa’s and trading of them.

My thoughts are that they are an essential part of the guitar playing experience and the knocking together of stuff from the parts bin to see how it works is great fun. Doing this as deliberate forgery for gain is of course a no no.

I assume that should one want to sell one on here the correct procedure is list it as parts and only post pics of the disassembled parts?

rico

They should be listed as partscasters and all the parts listed but not disassembled, what a bloody faff that would be!

impmann

sweepy

If they have Fender on the headstock and the neck IS a Fender then it’s fair to list it as. Fender Partscaster I would feel. Other components then should be itemised or use the disclaimer that the provenance isn’t clear etc

RiftAmps

My own position is quite clear - if the seller is honest about what the item is, then there are no issues with me.

Jalapeno

How would Eric Clapton's Blackie fare ?  It's very much a partscaster (though all Fender parts)

Jonathangus

My understanding is that, unless the parts are manufactured by Fender, and the parts assembled into a completed guitar by Fender, it's illegal to list it as a Fender.

Jalapeno

But trying to pass off a cheapo body plus a Licensed Fender neck IS shonky behaviour.

benmurray85

Are partscasters fake? No. 

Is knocking some parts parts together and sticking a trademarked logo on it immoral and illegal? Yes

benmurray85

Jalapeno said:

How would Eric Clapton's Blackie fare ?  It's very much a partscaster (though all Fender parts)

It all depends how it was advertised at point of sale doesn’t it.......

poopot

My first “proper” guitar was my USA standard that I bought new in ‘89... early 90’s saw the addition of a Floyd rose trem on it... over the years the trem eventually collapsed into the pickup route... so a replacement body was sourced. I’d kept the original fender two point trem so the guitar was put back to “standard”...

obviously as it sits now now it’s just the body that is not original, everything else on the guitar is as fender intended.

now if I manage to get another ‘89 USA body in the original colour and swop with the current body... is that guitar 100% original?... it would be 100% fender... but could I sell it as 100% original?

Fender don’t keep records earlier than the late ‘90’s (tried to find out what shade of white mine was by the serial number)... so there would be no way of telling if “body A” belonged with “neck B”...

so, if I source the right body, is my strat a “fake”? (FYI, it’s never getting sold, it was my first decent guitar)

TTony

Our guidance is  based on the legal advice given, and Lee's (understandable) preference not to be the subject of any legal action for enabling the sale  of fakes through activity on *his* server.  This* is his job that pays his bills, so being involved in anything remotely dodgy has much bigger consequences for him.

The  *risk* of that happening might be pretty remote, but it's a risk that we don't need to take, hence the  position, and the wording of our statement. 

Read the wording carefully - because it was written carefully - understand what it forbids and what it allows, and then stick to the rules, and then there's no problem with advertising and selling partsas here.

It doesn't matter if you say that it's a fake in the  description.  In fact, by admitting that it's a fake and that you know it's a fake, you've probably just put yourself in a completely indefensible position if (again, pretty remote chance)   anyone decided to take action against you for selling fakes.

maltingsaudio said:

I assume that should one want to sell one on here the correct procedure is list it as parts and only post pics of the disassembled parts?

Not quite - read the rules carefully.

What's not allowable in any circumstance is selling items to which decals have been added which make the item appear to be something that it's not  - typically that's putting a F decal on a non-F neck.  I've seen ads where people have done that to a neck that I'd think was more valuable without the F decal on it - ie the neck was made by a respected luthier.


[*edit - when I say "this" is his job, I don't mean running this specific site!]

benmurray85

poopot said:

My first “proper” guitar was my USA standard that I bought new in ‘89... early 90’s saw the addition of a Floyd rose trem on it... over the years the trem eventually collapsed into the pickup route... so a replacement body was sourced. I’d kept the original fender two point trem so the guitar was put back to “standard”...

obviously as it sits now now it’s just the body that is not original, everything else on the guitar is as fender intended.

now if I manage to get another ‘89 USA body in the original colour and swop with the current body... is that guitar 100% original?... it would be 100% fender... but could I sell it as 100% original?

Fender don’t keep records earlier than the late ‘90’s (tried to find out what shade of white mine was by the serial number)... so there would be no way of telling if “body A” belonged with “neck B”...

so, if I source the right body, is my strat a “fake”? (FYI, it’s never getting sold, it was my first decent guitar)

What you have is Trigger’s broom. Nothing more. 

maltingsaudio

benmurray85 said:

Are partscasters fake? No. 

Is knocking some parts parts together and sticking a trademarked logo on it immoral and illegal? Yes

Is as in my case, buying a "genuine" Charvel USA neck from a reputable parts dealer at a guitar show and sticking it on a parts bin S type body with a genuine wilkinson trem from a Carvin strat and some Brandoni pickups in a wd scratch plate with genuine sperzel  machines immoral and illegal?

impmann

benmurray85 said:

poopot said:

My first “proper” guitar was my USA standard that I bought new in ‘89... early 90’s saw the addition of a Floyd rose trem on it... over the years the trem eventually collapsed into the pickup route... so a replacement body was sourced. I’d kept the original fender two point trem so the guitar was put back to “standard”...

obviously as it sits now now it’s just the body that is not original, everything else on the guitar is as fender intended.

now if I manage to get another ‘89 USA body in the original colour and swop with the current body... is that guitar 100% original?... it would be 100% fender... but could I sell it as 100% original?

Fender don’t keep records earlier than the late ‘90’s (tried to find out what shade of white mine was by the serial number)... so there would be no way of telling if “body A” belonged with “neck B”...

so, if I source the right body, is my strat a “fake”? (FYI, it’s never getting sold, it was my first decent guitar)

What you have is Trigger’s broom. Nothing more. 

But probably a better guitar. ;-)

On the subject of 'Blackie', Clapton's famous bitsa... each time it was advertised/sold it was represented as a 195x Fender Stratocaster. Each time Fender have used it in their literature to sell signature models they have described it as his well worn 1950s Fender Stratocaster.

Even Fender seem to turn a blind eye (when it suits them).

;-)

maltingsaudio

This is why I started the thread, the guitar in question is a bodge job but despite some agricultural tweaks plays and sounds okay, so was thinking of outing it as per the description above because neck is far too big for my liking (and for the neck pocket without some judicious routing for that matter!)

benmurray85

maltingsaudio said:

benmurray85 said:

Are partscasters fake? No. 

Is knocking some parts parts together and sticking a trademarked logo on it immoral and illegal? Yes

Is as in my case, buying a "genuine" Charvel USA neck from a reputable parts dealer at a guitar show and sticking it on a parts bin S type body with a genuine wilkinson trem from a Carvin strat and some Brandoni pickups in a wd scratch plate with genuine sperzel  machines immoral and illegal?

Are you implying that the quality of the products somehow diminishes a sellers responsibility to advertise it correctly/properly/honestly?

i should probably add to my original comment that any wrongdoing would only be in relation to how the guitar was advertised at POS. Apolgies for any confusion

benmurray85

impmann said:

But probably a better guitar. ;-)

Even Fender seem to turn a blind eye (when it suits them).

FWIW I completely agree with both of these comments.

JayGee

TTony said:

What's not allowable in any circumstance is selling items to which decals have been added which make the item appear to be something that it's not  - typically that's putting a F decal on a non-F neck. 

So, if somebody has a ‘F’ built neck complete with a factory applied ‘F’ decal (and serial number) originally supplied as part of a ‘F’ guitar built in a ‘F’ factory which has subsequently been attached to (say) an MJT body (along with a Gotoh bridge, Oil City pickups, generic electrics etc) by a bloke in a shed in Nottingham...?

I know this is kind of awkward, but I can’t help thinking that the way ‘F’ guitars are constructed along with a thriving third party market in components, and a fair amount of enthusiasm for swapping bits around to try to build the “perfect” whatevercaster makes this a long way from being an academic question. Short of taking the whole thing to pieces and submitting the major components to scrutiny by an expert I suspect that most buyers and sellers would be hard pushed to tell the difference between an upgraded/modified/repaired original and a well executed Frankencaster with a genuine neck...

impmann

maltingsaudio said:

benmurray85 said:

Are partscasters fake? No. 

Is knocking some parts parts together and sticking a trademarked logo on it immoral and illegal? Yes

Is as in my case, buying a "genuine" Charvel USA neck from a reputable parts dealer at a guitar show and sticking it on a parts bin S type body with a genuine wilkinson trem from a Carvin strat and some Brandoni pickups in a wd scratch plate with genuine sperzel  machines immoral and illegal?

No.

Just because you have fitted the neck to a non-Charvel body does not change the fact it is a Charvel neck and as such, you are quite entitled to leave the logo in place even at POS. You must declare that the body is x, the trem is y etc and call it a partcaster.

However, fwiw, you will get far more for it if you sell it as parts and it will probably be easier to sell. Experience has taught me this, and yet it feels wrong - especially if you end up selling most of the parts to the same individual!!!

digitalscream

impmann said:

Even Fender seem to turn a blind eye (when it suits them).

;-)

Here's the bit that a lot of people don't seem to understand - whether the manufacturer (Fender in your example) is bothered about it is utterly irrelevant, because Fender don't write or enforce the laws we're all subject to; UK law has a very specific definition of what constitutes a counterfeit item, and that's the definition that we are subject to (and we enforce). Fender can't hit us with sanctions, but UK law enforcement can.

Ultimately, it comes down to what are considered intrinsic parts of a guitar and what are considered owner-upgrades. For a guitar, being as permissible as it's possible to be, the former includes the neck and the body and the latter comprises everything else.

So...yeah, Blackie falls foul of that. However, given that Blackie is a special case (ie of historical value) and unlikely to ever be sold on this site, I'm sure you'll understand why we're going to totally ignore that one (as well as any argument that our enforcement of these rules is wrong based on Blackie's existence)