Water-based paint instead of nitro?

mistercharlie

I just got back from my local car painter, and found out they want to paint my Strat in water-based automotive paint. How does this compare to nitro? The color is sonic blue.

I specified nitrocellulose lacquer when I dropped the body off almost a month back, and I assumed they'd been painting it all this time. I went to pick it up today and told me they'd ordered the wrong color (some new and nasty dark sonic blue). When the guy told me they could still have it ready tomorrow or Monday, the alarm bells went off. 

So, do I pull the project? Or is this water-based paint the same, or close enough? It's the kind that needs a clear coat, and they use heat to cure it faster. You all know why I wanted nitro - I want it to age and wear off. Does water-based paint do that?

BenSirAmos

When fender tried water-based paint in the 1970s it was spectacularly unsuccessful. 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HEdMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=fender+water-based+paint&source=bl&ots=TWO44-m15I&sig=BNS2JBReW5GdwhrtG8A1qd2p88w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA2dChtL7YAhXoLMAKHe5PBPIQ6AEISDAH#v=onepage&q=fender water-based paint&f=false

mistercharlie

Nothing worked very well in the 1970s though...

paulnb57

If it were me and I was paying someone else to do it, if I specified Nitro then I would expect Nitro, I would bring it home and find someone else to do it..

mistercharlie

The problem is, nitro is apparently banned here in Berlin. I could ship it off to one the fine forum members here I guess. And wait another month or so. 

Corvus

Waterbase paint is used in car production because of solvent regs - but it still needs a catalysed clear coat over the top, aka urethane, catalysed urethane, two-pack, 2k.

So no it won't wear like nitro because it has the tough clear over it, like cars and some guitars. Under a 2k clearcoat it's no different to 1k, at least until you chip the clear off and spill your beer on the colour coat.

It has some advantages over 1k acrylic (solvent base) - it has no fixed open time i.e. you can clearcoat it any time. 1k has a set time window after which adhesion is poor. It does soak up the clear. It's a bit odd to spray, you have to start easy, and needs heat & air movement to dry.

mistercharlie

One of the main points of this build was to have a body that would age and wear over time. I guess I’ll have to abort and start over.

mistercharlie

Crisis averted. Apparently the proper sonic blue is only available in nitro from one or two dealers in Germany, so that's what I'm getting. I'm still not sure which part of it all is illegal here. Also, it turns out the guy doing the painting is a musician, and has photos of guitars tacked up in his section as reference. I'm feeling a lot better about this now. 

One interesting point -- they use a 60˚C oven to accelerate drying/curing. The body is ready for polishing after a few hours. I guess they know their business, but it seems too good to be true. 

WezV

mistercharlie said:

One interesting point -- they use a 60˚C oven to accelerate drying/curing. The body is ready for polishing after a few hours. I guess they know their business, but it seems too good to be true. 

tell them you are happy to wait for it to cure naturally.   Ask if they have any experience finishing wood.  it can behave quite differently to a car panel 

its true that it will work fine on a car body.

mistercharlie

WezV said:

mistercharlie said:

One interesting point -- they use a 60˚C oven to accelerate drying/curing. The body is ready for polishing after a few hours. I guess they know their business, but it seems too good to be true. 

tell them you are happy to wait for it to cure naturally.   Ask if they have any experience finishing wood.  it can behave quite differently to a car panel 

its true that it will work fine on a car body.

They say they regularly work with a place that makes high-end (€20k+) speakers, and pianos. They seem like a good bunch generally—they do custom paint jobs for hot rods and the like. 

WezV

mistercharlie said:

WezV said:

mistercharlie said:

One interesting point -- they use a 60˚C oven to accelerate drying/curing. The body is ready for polishing after a few hours. I guess they know their business, but it seems too good to be true. 

tell them you are happy to wait for it to cure naturally.   Ask if they have any experience finishing wood.  it can behave quite differently to a car panel 

its true that it will work fine on a car body.

They say they regularly work with a place that makes high-end (€20k+) speakers, and pianos. They seem like a good bunch generally—they do custom paint jobs for hot rods and the like. 

but is that with the nitro they have managed to source for you?

at the end of the day, just make sure they will fix it if it goes wrong

mistercharlie

I will talk to them again when the new paint order arrives, so I’ll check then. They’re definitely experienced with nitro — the guy I spoke to says he prefer some it as it’s way easier to use. Good point on the difference between wood and metal. 

SteveRobinson

Nitrocellulose and other high VOC paints are indeed banned in EU for regular car refinishing but still legal for furniture, vintage cars and guitars add I understand it.

pintspiller

At least nobody mentioned Annie Sloan Chalkpaint 

Oops

stimpsonslostson

@pintspiller ; said:

At least nobody mentioned Annie Sloan Chalkpaint 

Oops

My wife has used that stuff to rather nice effect on a couple of pieces of furniture & has some left. I must admit to being tempted to use it on a guitar body I have lying around. So long as you sand & seal (I'd rather use TruOil rather than the wax) it I can't see it being an issue.... Or am I missing something? 

streethawk

Fender used both acrylic and nitro paint for custom colours and shot clear nitro over it. Sometimes they didn't shoot nitro over it and that's why some white guitars haven't yellowed over the years.

These were automotive paints, so you've gone to the right place!


They do nice water based lacquer these days, nitro is nasty stuff to work with. 

WezV

streethawk said:

Fender used both acrylic and nitro paint for custom colours and shot clear nitro over it. Sometimes they didn't shoot nitro over it and that's why some white guitars haven't yellowed over the years.

These were automotive paints, so you've gone to the right place!


They do nice water based lacquer these days, nitro is nasty stuff to work with. 

I am really not sure  that applies.   Yes, fender used automotive paints and the material itself makes a good guitar finish.   I don't think it automatically follows that car sprayers can pull off a good guitar finish.   

Sure, they have the right skillset to get started.  The only car sprayers i have known who do good guitar finishes are those who know a bit about guitars.   The main issue seems  to be many have not done wood before,and most have not done something as small and complicatedly shaped as a guitar.  


Even Fender had quite a learning curve with spraying wood -Fullerplast solved a lot of issues for them

GoldenEraGuitars

If you asked for nitro sonic blue then that is what they should be giving you. 

streethawk

WezV said:

streethawk said:

Fender used both acrylic and nitro paint for custom colours and shot clear nitro over it. Sometimes they didn't shoot nitro over it and that's why some white guitars haven't yellowed over the years.

These were automotive paints, so you've gone to the right place!


They do nice water based lacquer these days, nitro is nasty stuff to work with. 

I am really not sure  that applies.   Yes, fender used automotive paints and the material itself makes a good guitar finish.   I don't think it automatically follows that car sprayers can pull off a good guitar finish.   

Sure, they have the right skillset to get started.  The only car sprayers i have known who do good guitar finishes are those who know a bit about guitars.   The main issue seems  to be many have not done wood before,and most have not done something as small and complicatedly shaped as a guitar.  


Even Fender had quite a learning curve with spraying wood -Fullerplast solved a lot of issues for them

Yeah that was tongue in cheek. 

Sounds like the fellas doing the op's guitar know what they're doing mind you.

mistercharlie

lonestar said:

If you asked for nitro sonic blue then that is what they should be giving you. 

They are, now. 

I should find find out soon enough whether they’re up to the task. The place does a lot of custom car and airbrush work, which is why I picked it. It’s here:

http://www.lackebilly.de/

I won’t be buying an unfinished body again unless I plan to finish it myself, though. It’s a real pain in the arse to find anyone local to do it. In future I’ll order a nitro-finished body off someone here. I’ve seen a few folks whose work looks amazing. 

WezV

It does, once we were given more information about the work they do

Anyone remember the sprayer who turned up in the late days of music radar offering to do any colour for about £50?