Rectifier Valves

tomajoha

Do different brands of rectifier valve or NOS vs new make any discernible difference to sound/feel?  

ICBM

Yes.

I know that technically they "shouldn't", and I'm sure some people will say that, but I was able to blind-test a couple of them, with the help of a friend - admittedly a NOS GE 5AR4 vs a crappy Sovtek one which is probably not even the correct spec for a 5AR4/GZ34 - and tell which was which reliably, even at fairly low volume. It was quite subtle, but audible.

But that's after being able to carefully listen to each one first, immediately beforehand. If I'd left it for a longer time and then had one or the other put in the amp, I'm not sure if I could have told you quite so definitely which one it was. And I'm also not sure I could tell the difference between two that were more equal in quality.

For most purposes it's really only the reliability that varies - Sovtek are noticeably less reliable than JJ, TAD or Ruby of the common modern ones, and old ones are generally more reliable as well... but they can still fail.

tomajoha

Many thanks @ICBM interesting stuff

ecc83

Agreed about reliability, the 'fat TAD' I found virtually indestructible. EH and Sovteks, not so tough.

Dave.

Maynehead

This video shows an audible difference:

I've got a pair of Svetlana 5U4G military grade "coke bottle" rectifier valves that I take with me from amp to amp, and they haven't let me down yet.

DJH83004

I have to confess I don't have a musicians 'ear' when it comes to the subtleties of different types of valves particularly rectifiers, so from my standpoint it has to be the instantaneous voltage drop (or sag) when a transient from say a power chord is hit, that makes the difference, I just fit JJs because they seem to last longest in amps which are known rectifier killers such as the AC30CC range and others with dodgy standby switch topology.    

ICBM

Maynehead said:

This video shows an audible difference:

I couldn't actually listen to that for long enough to tell... utterly dreadful tone.

timmysoft

ICBM said:

Maynehead said:

This video shows an audible difference:

I couldn't actually listen to that for long enough to tell... utterly dreadful tone.

I fail to see what’s wrong with those tones, decent riff rock tones for modern music. 

ecc83

I agree IC, much the sort of sounds I lived with for DAAAAYS of amp testing (same **&^g riffs as well!)

I was surprised that I (deaf one) COULD hear some differences but only when he played the 1st E. Very unpleasant all the time but the worst sound was from the EL34s. Otherwise, the 'chugging' was all much the same to me.

But! WTF don't these guy buy a fekking $30 Sound Level Meter?! We have NO idea of the level he is putting out? If you are 'testing' rectifiers the main issue will be sag? That amp must pull 120mA quiescent ? So, the rects will not make Jack S diff until he is really running the beans off the OP valves. The fact that he is running into a single V30 (60W) tells me he is not doing that?  Plus, THAT close to a 100W amp at full tilt? You would not know what sound was what after 10 minutes, an hour of that and you would be deaf for days.

Why two different mics? And AFAICT everything was panned centrally?

 Lastly, what are peeps listening on? I was using my HP laptop and a pair of AKG K92s. The HP soundcard is pretty good I have run it into Tannoy monitors in the past and it was fine. The K92s are very sensitive (1V =112dB SPL) and so the audio level only needs be at some 40%. If folks are listening from a crap phone HP jack or (heaven forfend!) fag packet sized PC speakers, it is going to sound dreadful!

Dave.

ICBM

timmysoft said:

I fail to see what’s wrong with those tones, decent riff rock tones for modern music. 

Overbearing, fatiguing upper-midrange gritty honk that overrides everything, with no dynamics or variation. I really can't listen to it closely, it sets my teeth on edge.

I know this seems to be a popular sound, in fact there are quite a few amps that won't do anything else! So I suppose some people must like it .

A Dual Rectifier is capable of much better though.

ecc83 said:

If you are 'testing' rectifiers the main issue will be sag? That amp must pull 120mA quiescent ? So, the rects will not make Jack S diff until he is really running the beans off the OP valves. The fact that he is running into a single V30 (60W) tells me he is not doing that?  Plus, THAT close to a 100W amp at full tilt?

When I tested it I was running the amp at well below the level where sag would be a factor at all - a 35W amp at 'front room' volume. The difference was in the clarity, not the dynamics - odd, and hard to explain technically, but I could hear it.

A Dual Rectifier isn't necessarily a 100W amp either - if it's set to valve rectifier it's at most 80W, and if also set to 'Spongy' (which is a crude voltage drop for the whole amp, including the filament supply!) as well it's only around 60. Even so, from the lack of audible sag in that sound - for as long as I could stand listening to it - I doubt it was turned up full.

Modulus_Amps

I don't mind the tones, it what that guys likes an appeals to that crowd - unless it is two days of it at the guitar show!

I would have thought this discussion would be more applicable to a tweed deluxe or other vintage fender amp that you generally crank up.

I have never tested them myself for tone purposes and generally tend to go for reliability and availability.

tomajoha

@Modulus_Amps yes the amps in question are 5 and 12 watts fender tweeds

ecc83

Sorry! Got you both the wrong way around! I have to say, whenever I listen to Ytube amp demos, THAT is the sort of sound I hear 95% of the time.   I did not get a comment on the microphone point? How can anyone compare amps recorded with two different mics? Ideally a really flat SDC should be used IMHO.

100, 80,60 W ? No matter, we are still talking in excess of 118dB SPL  and nobody can think straight at those levels.

But my biggest beef is that we are never told what the playback system is when peeps pronounce on the videos? To my mind it has to be pretty impeccable or it yells you Jack!

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

I did not get a comment on the microphone point? How can anyone compare amps recorded with two different mics?

There were two different mics, but as I understood it, each one was used for the left and right channels, consistently across all the demos.

ecc83 said:

100, 80,60 W ? No matter, we are still talking in excess of 118dB SPL  and nobody can think straight at those levels.

True! But what I meant was that he could have had it fairly cranked up and still be using the V30 safely.

I could be wrong, but it did sound like he was using the 'Spongy' mode, to me - I've never liked that setting on the Rectifier, it has an odd grainy/grating sound.

ecc83 said:

But my biggest beef is that we are never told what the playback system is when peeps pronounce on the videos? To my mind it has to be pretty impeccable or it yells you Jack!

Same as always - Mac onboard audio out (I know, not the best but far from the worst available) into a Pioneer SA-540 amp and a pair of Wharfedale Laser 30 speakers with upgraded Laser 50 tweeters, set up at head height. Not studio quality but easily good enough for Youtube!

Modulus_Amps

tomajoha said:

@Modulus_Amps yes the amps in question are 5 and 12 watts fender tweeds

ok, in your 5w tweed probably very little difference, maybe more so in the 12w, but the effect will be pretty small I would think and could be crudely tweaked with a series resistor for more sag if that was what you wanted.

Maynehead

I'm not understanding what all the fuss is about...

He's already stated that a) the inputs for both pickup types are re-amped and b) the exact same settings/mics/mic positions where used for ALL takes. He recorded using 2 different mics and 2 different cabs to try and give a more blended tone but it's the same 2 mics and 2 cabs for every take.

As for the tone, that's pretty much what a mult-watt dual rec in Ch3 modern mode sounds like when recorded on an Orange PPC112 with a Celestion V30 using an SM57 (I've done it). The sound through the right channel (Eminence speaker) sounds less fizzy so just pan our sound all the way right if you must.

However, going back to the actual point... if you click on the video name and go into the full Youtube website, you can find in the description a list of timestamps for the different sections. If you click back and forth between the first section and the second (or 3rd and 4th etc.), you can hear the difference that changing the rectifier valves alone makes.

ChuckManual

ICBM said:

Overbearing, fatiguing upper-midrange gritty honk that overrides everything, with no dynamics or variation.

Sounds like a review of Theresa May's public speaking voice...

crunchman

ICBM said:

Yes.

I know that technically they "shouldn't", and I'm sure some people will say that, but I was able to blind-test a couple of them, with the help of a friend - admittedly a NOS GE 5AR4 vs a crappy Sovtek one which is probably not even the correct spec for a 5AR4/GZ34 - and tell which was which reliably, even at fairly low volume. It was quite subtle, but audible.

But that's after being able to carefully listen to each one first, immediately beforehand. If I'd left it for a longer time and then had one or the other put in the amp, I'm not sure if I could have told you quite so definitely which one it was. And I'm also not sure I could tell the difference between two that were more equal in quality.

For most purposes it's really only the reliability that varies - Sovtek are noticeably less reliable than JJ, TAD or Ruby of the common modern ones, and old ones are generally more reliable as well... but they can still fail.

Would they both provide the same plate voltage to the valves?

If the Sovtek wasn't to the correct spec (let's say it was something along the lines of a rebadged 5Y3) then surely it would put out a lower voltage.  Could that affect the tone?

ICBM

crunchman said:

Would they both provide the same plate voltage to the valves?

If the Sovtek wasn't to the correct spec (let's say it was something along the lines of a rebadged 5Y3) then surely it would put out a lower voltage.  Could that affect the tone?

Quite likely, yes. Although small variations in plate voltage by themselves don't seem to have the same effect.