Quincy Jones on the Beatles

Jalapeno

QJ played on The Self Preservation Society, but Don Black co-wrote it I believe

Point well made - he hasn't written that much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Songs_written_by_Quincy_Jones

Bezzer

stickyfiddle said:

Teetonetal said:

@Bezzer very good shout.

I went to a Picasso exhibition in Prague some time ago and they had some early work. It was fantastic, really loved it. Then  hit the African period and the foundation of his later work appears. But man his early work is just fab. 



This ^ is a Picasso.

Of course. But that's the art equivalent of Jimi Hendrix's work in backing bands before he got big doing his own thing. It's technically excellent, and perhaps better than most people could manage, but not at all why he's regarded as important.

No, but the point was he had all the technique in the world and then chose what to do with it.  Not that he had little technique but managed anyway as the original post suggested.

mixolyd

Geez am I the only one who thinks that McCartney was technically excellent?  Sure he was very limited compared to the jazzers and session players but he did some exceptional work within the rock n roll sphere.  There's a bounce and subtle feel to some of his baselines that I haven't heard anywhere else.

As for not being a great musician I'm in agreement with Howard Goodall: the world is full of great technical players who can follow rules to a tee but composers who can evoke a musical world of sophistication, power and accessibility in just a few bars - they are rare.

DanGuitarMan

How do you become a great musician? By practising endlessly on scales, arpeggios, changes in the Real Book, (2,5,1 again? Oh great, I'll rip off some Pat Metheny riff or do a bit of Wayne Shorter!) Better learn to read and then I can hang with "THE REAL GUYS" and rip off their shit! How do you write a song with the integrity of 'In My Life,' or Jealous Guy?' Or 'Fool on the Hill?' Oh my goodness where is that Berkley course in Integrity? Never mind I'll just put some Funky one-chord groove down and hope some sexy performer can make something of it. 

Teetonetal

DanGuitarMan said:

How do you become a great musician? By practising endlessly on scales, arpeggios, changes in the Real Book, (2,5,1 again? Oh great, I'll rip off some Pat Metheny riff or do a bit of Wayne Shorter!) Better learn to read and then I can hang with "THE REAL GUYS" and rip off their shit! How do you write a song with the integrity of 'In My Life,' or Jealous Guy?' Or 'Fool on the Hill?' Oh my goodness where is that Berkley course in Integrity? Never mind I'll just put some Funky one-chord groove down and hope some sexy performer can make something of it. 

Being a writer is not the be all and end all of music. There is a huge amount of work available, that requires people of skill Often writers need performers to get their show on the road, get records made etc. Having a musical education and going to somewhere like Berkley is just one way of getting your level high enough, across a range of styles to make a career in music.

I chose to go that path. I'm not a massively creative person, but I can play and sing to a good standard. I've done a tonne of work over the years (I left GIT in 1996) across a range of areas, studio, TV, live, teaching that at various points in my life has enabled me to live off of music as an only source of income. It all got a bit much for me after 10 years and I stepped away, but even now another 10 years later, that education keeps the door to that world open.

These places are not designed to create superstar songwriters, they are designed to enable people to work.

Fretwired

DanGuitarMan said:

How do you become a great musician? By practising endlessly on scales, arpeggios, changes in the Real Book, (2,5,1 again? Oh great, I'll rip off some Pat Metheny riff or do a bit of Wayne Shorter!) Better learn to read and then I can hang with "THE REAL GUYS" and rip off their shit! How do you write a song with the integrity of 'In My Life,' or Jealous Guy?' Or 'Fool on the Hill?' Oh my goodness where is that Berkley course in Integrity? Never mind I'll just put some Funky one-chord groove down and hope some sexy performer can make something of it. 

You learn what you need to know. I read an interview with John Martyn who said as soon as he'd got the basics of his guitar playing nailed he switched to song writing. He didn't need to be a flashy player to make a career out of music and he wanted to be a singer songwriter. His first album wasn't great but his song writing improved as he invested more time in it.

And John McLaughlin wasn't overly impressed with many of the guys coming out of Berkley. He accused the college of turning out indentikit musicians, especially guitarists. He thought many lacked an original voice and that you had to go along your own road of discovery and play with as many other musicians as possible - McLaughlin was very spiritual.

There's no one way and its not easy.

impmann

Teetonetal said:

Being a writer is not the be all and end all of music. <SNIP>

Erm... actually... for me it is.

Y'see, I got into music to express myself. Not to be a clone. Not to trot out written lines as a recital. Yes, there is a lot of skill in this and I don't look down upon it. Its not for me.

However, I think that someone who can create a piece of music that connects with a huge number of people is a very important person, no matter whether I like their music or not. And that is a far GREATER skill than learning what the dots mean, imho.

Teetonetal

impmann said:

Teetonetal said:

Being a writer is not the be all and end all of music. <SNIP>

Erm... actually... for me it is.

Y'see, I got into music to express myself. Not to be a clone. Not to trot out written lines as a recital. <SNIP>

Good for you! How's it gone on that front?

Though I think any good musician does far more than trot out written lines. Saying that I've seen some of the so-called greats stand on stage, look as bored as fuck and definitely trot out their own music. (ERIC CLAPTON)

BigLicks67

Teetonetal said:

Do you know the difference between a musician and a song writer?

No, Please can you explain?

impmann

Teetonetal said:

impmann said:

Teetonetal said:

Being a writer is not the be all and end all of music. <SNIP>

Erm... actually... for me it is.

Y'see, I got into music to express myself. Not to be a clone. Not to trot out written lines as a recital. <SNIP>

Good for you! How's it gone on that front?

Its had the desired effect. Has it made be rich and famous? Nope - hence why I respect those that have done. :-)

Philly_Q

Teetonetal said:

Nothing to add to this never-the-twain-shall-meet debate, but I really like that painting.

BigLicks67

Teetonal

because when I listen to Beatles (less so) Wings or PMc Solo tracks, I don't hear anything special that elevates him into the realm of exceptional musician. He plays for the song, but that's it. I don't think he's an exceptional singer, or an exceptional bass player. He does the job. He gets the songs across but I don't think he is doing some of them justice.. for me you can hear it more in his wings / solo work, it's crying out for the diversity of delivery that the Beatles had. 

But sure - I'm not going to convince anyone here of my point of view. But for me, commercial success leads people to raise individuals up to the echelons of greatness where perhaps it's not deserved.

You say you don't think he's an exceptional singer, what to you would constitute exceptional vocal skills, is it just a matter of taste, ie, you don't like the sound his voice, or you think he is technically inadequate? Personally I would describe someone with the vocal range of McCartney to at the very least be described as a versatile singer, if not talented and exceptional. As for his bass playing he is regularly name checked and considered an highly influential musician by other bass players particularly in the rock/pop world. On top of this he was an adequate, guitarist, pianist and drummer, as well as being one the great songwriters of the 20th century.

JAYJO

I havent heard anyone improve a beatles track. Not even Joe Cocker or Wet Wet Wets version of help from my friends.
Ringo has to be the person who sings that song. Quincey would do well to listen to it. imo.

ICBM

JAYJO said:

I havent heard anyone improve a beatles track.

Siouxsie & The Banshees - Dear Prudence. 

Interestingly one of the only Beatles recordings that doesn’t have Ringo on drums - it’s Paul - and I think it shows. Paul was actually quite a good drummer, but he lacked Ringo’s groove and subtlety.

JAYJO

ICBM said:

JAYJO said:

I havent heard anyone improve a beatles track.

Siouxsie & The Banshees - Dear Prudence. 

Interestingly one of the only Beatles recordings that doesn’t have Ringo on drums - it’s Paul - and I think it shows. Paul was actually quite a good drummer, but he lacked Ringo’s groove and subtlety.

I like the version but for me its the Beatles with the Acoustic intro and John Lennons voice over Siousie. White Album is amazing imo but i dont get no9 dream.

mburekenge

Hmmm... it's almost like he has something to promote... say a new film.... and decades at the top of the entertainment industry has taught him that generating a little controversy may help promote it.

Imagine that. lol