Wanted: the definitive way of fixing Les Paul tuning issues

ICBM

It looks about right for height and overall profile, but if you look carefully at the G string slot you can see it needs to be flared slightly more on the headstock side - the string is running against the side wall as it exits the slot. This is what causes a lot of the tuning problems. The B might be slightly as well.

Personally I would also round over the ends a lot too, I don’t like the corners snagging my hand.

adampeter

ICBM said:

adampeter said:

Scale length will always mean intonation is a compromise, which is worse than a Fender/PRS scale length

That’s total nonsense.

I’d be interested to know the logic behind that...

As long as all the frets are correctly spaced then any scale length can be intonated accurately.

total fact buddy, do a bit of research
All fretted instruments are a compromise, and the shorter the scale length the greater the compromise

Jonathanthomas83

Thanks guys, yeah, it looks a hell of a mess and really needs a good polish as well as the flares on the slots. @WezV @ICBM do you know what tools I can use for this (looking for a google friendly term to search).

You've confirmed my thoughts now that I've done a bit of research. Really appreciate your time.

Jonathanthomas83

adampeter said:

ICBM said:

adampeter said:

Scale length will always mean intonation is a compromise, which is worse than a Fender/PRS scale length

That’s total nonsense.

I’d be interested to know the logic behind that...

As long as all the frets are correctly spaced then any scale length can be intonated accurately.

total fact buddy, do a bit of research
All fretted instruments are a compromise, and the shorter the scale length the greater the compromise

Could you post a link or two to your findings? Many thanks

ICBM

adampeter said:

total fact buddy, do a bit of research

All fretted instruments are a compromise, and the shorter the scale length the greater the compromise

Over the differences you’re talking about, total rubbish.

You can intonate a Gibson scale length just as well as a Fender one, to any degree of accuracy you can hear or see on the best tuner.

adampeter

Jonathanthomas83 said:

adampeter said:

ICBM said:

adampeter said:

Scale length will always mean intonation is a compromise, which is worse than a Fender/PRS scale length

That’s total nonsense.

I’d be interested to know the logic behind that...

As long as all the frets are correctly spaced then any scale length can be intonated accurately.

total fact buddy, do a bit of research
All fretted instruments are a compromise, and the shorter the scale length the greater the compromise

Could you post a link or two to your findings? Many thanks

The shorter the scale length the more compensation is needed, that's a fact
Now i'm not saying that you cannot get a Gibson scale length to be acceptably intonated, people have managed this for years
But its a fact that more compensation is needed 
Google scale length or string intonation for all the info you could ever need 
Anyway its Sunday morning and i can't be bothered to argue the point tbh

Keefy

I think there are generally 2 issues to address regarding the nut:

(1) If the slots are cut high, pressing down a string to one of the lower frets will make it go sharp, disproportionately so for the G. In the Guitar Player Repair Guide, Dan Erlewine sets out a simple technique for cutting nut slots nice and low without risk of overdoing it.

(2) String snagging in the nut slot, then releasing tension with an audible 'ping'. The solution is to slightly widen and flare the slot as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Once this is sorted, I lube the nut slot with a dab of Lipsyl or similar - it's basically a dry grease.

Think about getting a set of nut files from Stewart MacDonald, mine have been well worth what I paid, even allowing for the extra money I got mugged for by Customs. I first used them on a cheap Vintage LP copy, and now happily set about even my most expensive guitars with them.

adampeter

Jonathanthomas83 said:

adampeter said:

ICBM said:

adampeter said:

Scale length will always mean intonation is a compromise, which is worse than a Fender/PRS scale length

That’s total nonsense.

I’d be interested to know the logic behind that...

As long as all the frets are correctly spaced then any scale length can be intonated accurately.

total fact buddy, do a bit of research
All fretted instruments are a compromise, and the shorter the scale length the greater the compromise

Could you post a link or two to your findings? Many thanks

Sorry mate i replied to the wrong bloke
this is a good read on the subject
http://www.lmii.com/scale-length-intonation

mrkb

Use a “string butler” to realign the strings leaving the nut.... haven’t had any experience of it, but it certainly fixes one of the issues with that design of tuning peg location.

tone1

https://youtu.be/Yop14lP8E_s

Yep... The string Butler was my first thought 

WezV

adampeter said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

adampeter said:

ICBM said:

adampeter said:

Scale length will always mean intonation is a compromise, which is worse than a Fender/PRS scale length

That’s total nonsense.

I’d be interested to know the logic behind that...

As long as all the frets are correctly spaced then any scale length can be intonated accurately.

total fact buddy, do a bit of research
All fretted instruments are a compromise, and the shorter the scale length the greater the compromise

Could you post a link or two to your findings? Many thanks

Sorry mate i replied to the wrong bloke
this is a good read on the subject
http://www.lmii.com/scale-length-intonation

you have to be very careful when talking about scale length and compensation on Gibson's

Measure nut to 12th and double it and you will either get 24 5/8 or 24 9/16 depending on the year.  Now measure each fret and take note of how many don't actually align with the measurements for either a 24 5/8 or 24 9/16" scale length

I should take a pic o the 73/74 custom i have here next to my fret scale rule.   both are 24 9/16 but the fret positions are totally different

here is a vid explaining the issue.     This guys theory for the odd spacing is gibson used a straight rule of 18, whereas everyone using 17.817.   The outcome is a slight intonation adjustment per fret.   personally i prefer to build to 17.817 and do the rest with nut and bridge compensation.




This is totally unrelated to the issue of tuning stability

WezV

might want to watch his other vid on intonation too

Jonathanthomas83

Freebird said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Thanks for all your thoughts. everyone. I need to practice cutting a few nuts...I can tell mine isn't up to scratch based on the reading and research I've done tonight...needs work, for sure.

Couldn't your local guitar tech sort it out?

Eltham did that work you see in the pics, I was pleased at the time, but not so much in retrospect. Still work to do, judging by this conversation, unfortunately.

Funkfingers

adampeter said:

All fretted instruments are a compromise and, the shorter the scale length, the greater the compromise

This assertion is entirely correct in its literal sense. The shorter scale may require greater correction but it does not follow that it is any more difficult to do. 



At this point, I should declare my bias in favour of builders and repairs over theorists. 

Rocker

Sorry guys, I misunderstood the question. I read it as 'playing in tune' but the OP asked about 'keeping his guitar in tune'. As always a setup by a luthier will or should solve the latter issue. DIY will save you perhaps €50 but spending on a pro setup is always good value.  IMHO of course

Jonathanthomas83

It's finding someone who will do a good job...it's been to one tech already. I'm gonna have a go myself, I've bought a file for the job...let's see how it goes! Wish me luck!

Jonathanthomas83

Right, had a fuck full, I've flared the nut slot of the G to the best of my noob ability, put nut sauce on it and it's still falling flat after a bit of a play.

Gawd knows what's gonna fix it. 

Is it as simple as using something like an Earvana nut or is the problem completely different to what that nut solves?

Freebird

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Right, had a fuck full, I've flared the nut slot of the G to the best of my noob ability, put nut sauce on it and it's still falling flat after a bit of a play.

Gawd knows what's gonna fix it. 

Is it as simple as using something like an Earvana nut or is the problem completely different to what that nut solves?

Give John a ring and offer to pay him on a sliding scale the longer it stays in tune  

Jonathanthomas83

@Freebird planning on driving it up to Les Paul king @FelineGuitars, it needs a bit of tlc.

Jez6345789

I was caught out by the comment from 39.59 about the scale length is the biggest problem to tuning. I don’t have bat ears so probably miss some of it but I was surprised as scale length is seen as such an issue.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9_Xi9GQ48iY