Can adults develop perfect pitch?

Rabs

octatonic

No.
You are born with it or you aren't.
You can develop very good relative pitch with a lot of effort.

viz

I think you develop it as a young child. Or at least you can. Or some can. Not sure as an adult, but you can probably get close-ish, but possibly not perfect. You lose it as an adult too, it starts to go flat. I have to make a conscious effort to make sure it’s sharp enough, it doesn’t come as naturally as it did. 

bingefeller

I guess not then.  

Winny_Pooh

I read an article a while back that said that children who start music around 4 or 5 years old have a 50% chance of developing perfect pitch so it's not to do with birth. This makes sense as most people I've heard of with perfect pitch started music really young. 

I did the perfect pitch course and could start hearing a handful of pitch colours just as they claim but stopped it. It's sound in concept, it just takes time and dedication 

steamabacus

I've always been a bit dubious about the absoluteness of 'perfect' pitch - perfect relative to what? A 440? A 432? Tempered tuning? Pythagorean? etc. etc.

Surely there is some form of internalised reference, relative to which the notes are heard? Also, some form of culturally learned sense of scale and tuning?

What exactly is a 'perfect A'?



Then, a few years ago, I heard of this research...

BBC : "Perfect pitch may not be so 'perfect'"


APS: Absolute Pitch May Not Be So Absolute

thegummy

Very interesting video thanks very much for sharing this - think I've found a new Youtube channel that I can watch for a while.

I had always thought it was impossible to learn perfect pitch, certainly as an adult. I had actually thought previously that it was something one is born with but he makes good points about young children being able to learn it.

At the end of every Jools Holland when he gets all the artists to play together, he always names the key that's been randomly chosen after just a couple of notes have been played - I've often wondered if he's one of the rare people born with perfect pitch or if being able to name a key instantly like that is something that comes from decades as a full time professional musician. Unless I'm missing something, doing that does require perfect pitch and therefore he must have been born with it or learned it as an infant.

merlin

Check out David L. Burge.  He has a course published that can train you to have perfect pitch. Apparently. 

Phil_aka_Pip

I think you can learn what an A440 sounds like. You can learn what a C256 sounds like, you can learn what any particular reference sounds like.

VimFuego

hmmmm this is an interesting conversation. I've been trying to learn the violin for about 3 years now (self taught for a number of reasons though I am about to have some lessons) and clearly pitch is important for players of instruments like the violin family.
Over the time I've been learning I'd say my ear has gotten significantly better but one of the consistent issues I seem to have (and it's not a small one) is that while I can tell if I am playing out of tune, I struggle to tell if I'm flat or sharp and have to rely on an external source to tell me (a tuner generally). I would say I play in tune 90% of the time, and no one 100% of the time hits all the notes bang on, so it's important to know how to correct errors as you play, you can't use a tuner for that. 
Without knowing the actual term, I assume this is relative pitch rather than perfect pitch. So I guess my question is, how do I go about improving my relative pitch?

Phil_aka_Pip

I would suggest playing along with a pitch source that you trust, for example an electronic keyboard. Scales, arpeggios, other technical exercises as well as set pieces. IMO muscle memory is important on an unfretted instrument, as much as the ability to detect by ear if you're wrong and making that subtle adjustment to pitch under the guise of "vibrato"

VimFuego

heh, yeah the vibrato trick is well known, I've been told it's not allowed in exams for the scales and arpeggios tests.

And yeah, I've recently got a book with a bunch of scales, exercises and so on with backing tracks. I *think* I've noticed improvement since using them, but it's not easy to be objective about ones own playing. 

guitars4you

I can almost hear the top E of guitar in my head - not pitch perfect but close - just developed from constant use - But I'm not close to hearing perfect pitch in any way when I try to learn a song/melody without any music/tab - ie by learning to copy the melody by ear alone - I have to work at it - sometimes get there without the music/tab, sometimes need it

I dare say the more you work at it the better you get even if you don't achieve 100%

fields5069

People with perfect pitch say things like "that's an A". They don't say which one - 440, 441 or 442. It's an approximation, isn't it?

shefguitar

fields5069 said:

People with perfect pitch say things like "that's an A". They don't say which one - 440, 441 or 442. It's an approximation, isn't it?

No they'll mean 440 and if the pitch is not accurate they'll say it's either flat or sharp.

Funkfingers

Perfect pitch is a function of memory. 

If the ability were truly innate, it ought to be applicable to any musical scale from this planet. Somebody who had never heard the degrees of, say, an Arabic scale, should still be able to identify them. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_equal_temperament

viz

As someone who has perfect pitch this is my experience of it: I’ve had it for as long as I can remember noticing it, which is since about 12 or 13, but it probably started developing from when I was 6 or 7 or maybe younger I don’t know. As far as I can tell my perfect pitch is based on 440 but obviously there’s a margin of error. When I sing a note into my tuner app (n-track tuner, it’s excellent), I’m always on the right note but the metronome tone can be very slightly off. Usually sharper. But don’t know how much mine’s out in Hz by so it’s a bit academic to state which temperament it is. If pushed I’d say it’s basically 12-TET. But it’s a bit like recognising a colour. You know it’s red but do you know the pantone number? I doubt anyone can reliably hear the difference between 440 and 441 anyway if the notes are not played together or in quick succession, even if they have extremely good relative or absolute pitch. Albeit 12-TET tends to go out the window when you’re just singing in harmony with others unaccompanied, as it’s easier to sing perfect ‘just’ intervals totally accurately with your choir colleagues than it is to sing slightly inaccurately by a very precise amount. 

Also interesting to note - it’s easier to name a played note than to sing one perfectly accurately from scratch. A bit like understanding vs speaking a foreign language. It’s also easier if I’ve heard some music at correct pitch in the last day or so. There’s a sort of immediate memory and a deeper base memory that is there to be called on though it takes a bit of acccessing. I’m nothing like Rick Beato’s son because I can’t immediately name any note, I have to think. My father has perfect pitch too but he’s much quicker and more accurate than I am. 

Another thing - my perfect pitch has started to flatten slightly over recent years, but with concentration I can always bring it to correct pitch. 

The supposed problem of not being able to sing along to pieces if they’re not completely at concert pitch is absolutely not true, not for me anyway. Nor if something is transposed. Relative pitch is always stronger than absolute pitch and will always trump it. In fact, if a choir is singing unaccompanied and starts to drift sharp, I will obviously know it, but as to how sharp it’s gone is quite difficult, especially if the drift is very slow. It’s a bit like trying to walk in a straight line with your eyes shut. You know you’ve wandered off but you’re not sure exactly which way you’re facing. I need silence again to recalibrate and sing the correct pitch.

Anyway, that’s what it’s like for me. 

SNAKEBITE

I can't carry a tune in a wheelbarrow, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

dazzajl

Wow, very nice description @viz ;

That’s the closest I’m going to get to understanding something I’ll never feel from the inside. 

Strat_a_tat_tat

SNAKEBITE said:

I can't carry a tune in a wheelbarrow, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Maybe you need a new wheelbarrow.

https://www.diy.com/departments/verve-black-85l-wheelbarrow/1610089_BQ.prd?icamp=recs&rrec=true

Rabs

I don't think I have perfect pitch but I can for instance remember a song with chords I know like say Knocking on Heavens Door...  I know the G D C progression so well that I can remember and recall the pitch, I get my As from ACDC ...  I sometimes test myself when I put a new set of strings on and try to tune it by ear... Im always flat but I do get quite close...

My mum told me that when I was a baby and she was doing the housework she would put some classical music on and sit me in front  of it and it apparently mesmerised me in to being quite and relaxed.

I often wonder if this is why I always had a connection to music in the first place ( thanks mum )