Fret third, distance between string and first?

robgilmo

On a Strat, is there an ideal distance? Mine is 0.3 mm.

WezV

0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000123

robgilmo

feet?

WezV

robgilmo said:

feet?

2

robgilmo

b or not 2 b ?

amarok1971

Graphtech say 0.25 on E and 0.15 on e

robgilmo

I am down to that now, but on my snark when I fret an f on the e string I am two bars sharp, that shouldn't matter too much should it?

thegummy

robgilmo said:

I am down to that now, but on my snark when I fret an f on the e string I am two bars sharp, that shouldn't matter too much should it?

Unless it's an incredibly precise tuner I wouldn't be happy with it being two bars sharp.

As far as I know, the ideal distance is one file motion away from it actually touching the fret and it looks to the naked eye like it's touching but if you touch it, it makes a pingy noise indicating it is't already touching it.

amarok1971

I've just measures a couple of my prs... 1 is at 0.1 on both e's and the other is at 0.15. Neither fret sharp at the first fret

FelineGuitars

robgilmo said:

I am down to that now, but on my snark when I fret an f on the e string I am two bars sharp, that shouldn't matter too much should it?

Gap should be such that you can only JUST detect a gap- sort of rizla paper to writing paper gap

If that still fails (and the strings are FRESH) then consider an Earvana nut

BloodEagle

Surely with such small gaps you get all kinds of open string buzz?

robgilmo

BloodEagle said:

Surely with such small gaps you get all kinds of open string buzz?

You shouldn't, unfretted you rely on bridge action.Im having a wine break, will start back in  a bit, but its getting there!

FelineGuitars

robgilmo said:

BloodEagle said:

Surely with such small gaps you get all kinds of open string buzz?

You shouldn't, unfretted you rely on bridge action.Im having a wine break, will start back in  a bit, but its getting there!

if you can put a capo on at the first fret and play cleanly 
then in theory you should be able to get away with the same height over the first fret from the nut as you were having over the second fret when capoed at the first..almost like a guitar with a zero fret 

ICBM

Aim for about 0.05mm on the top E string up to 0.1mm for the low E - or Rizla paper, as FelineGuitars said.

It doesn't have to be exact, but the gap should be much smaller than the string diameter. 0.3mm is slightly larger than the top E diameter.

PRS use a slightly forward compensated nut position which also helps.

HAL9000

Don't forget that fretted notes might be sharp due to technique rather than the intonation being out. It's not unheard off to be holding down a string and bending it slightly at the same time.

Also, stupid question but I'm assuming that the intonation at the twelfth fret has already been sorted?

robgilmo

Its the nut height, its still way too high, I stopped for a wine break and didnt get back to it, damn wine! I should finish it tonight.

crunchman

ICBM said:

Aim for about 0.05mm on the top E string up to 0.1mm for the low E - or Rizla paper, as FelineGuitars said.

It doesn't have to be exact, but the gap should be much smaller than the string diameter. 0.3mm is slightly larger than the top E diameter.

PRS use a slightly forward compensated nut position which also helps.

Wasn't that patented in the 80's?  The patent should have expired by now.  I don't understand why other manufacturers don't do the same.

richardhomer

As @ICBM said, PRS move the nut closer to the first fret to ‘sweeten’ the tuning over the first few frets - I believe the Buzz Feiten system does the same.

I wouldn’t worry too much about how notes at the first fret read on a tuner - the real issue is if they actually sound ‘out’. Owing to the physics of guitars, not every note will be ‘in’ on a tuner - the whole thing is a compromise.

ICBM

crunchman said:

ICBM said:

PRS use a slightly forward compensated nut position which also helps.

Wasn't that patented in the 80's?  The patent should have expired by now.  I don't understand why other manufacturers don't do the same.

richardhomer said:

As @ICBM said, PRS move the nut closer to the first fret to ‘sweeten’ the tuning over the first few frets - I believe the Buzz Feiten system does the same.

Buzz Feiten did patent it, as part of his ‘system’ - but that shouldn’t have been allowed since other makers, including PRS and Hamer, were already doing it.

richardhomer said:

I wouldn’t worry too much about how notes at the first fret read on a tuner - the real issue is if they actually sound ‘out’. Owing to the physics of guitars, not every note will be ‘in’ on a tuner - the whole thing is a compromise.

The odd thing is that one of the most ‘in tune’ guitars I’ve ever heard was my Rickenbacker 660/12, which does not have a compensated nut position. But it does have the ability to set the neck very straight and the action very low, since you don’t tend to bend strings on a 12-string.

I also used rolled-wound strings on it, which seem to intonate very evenly - flatwounds even more so. It intonated to within +/- 1 cent on every string at every fret, except for a couple of the thickest strings at the very last fret.

For what it’s worth, the more even intonation of flatwounds is why 50s Les Pauls have the bridge set straighter on the body than modern ones - that’s what they were designed for.

At the end of the day it’s all a complex combination of factors - but it’s part of why guitars sound like guitars. If you eliminate them all and produce perfect intonation it starts to sound too much like a sampled guitar rather than a real one.

robgilmo

Thos is true, and this has small vintage type frets so it wont get any worse unless I press unusually hard, I have been playing it at every step between reducing the gap and it sounds Ok.

guitars4you

richardhomer said:

As @ICBM said, PRS move the nut closer to the first fret to ‘sweeten’ the tuning over the first few frets - I believe the Buzz Feiten system does the same.

I wouldn’t worry too much about how notes at the first fret read on a tuner - the real issue is if they actually sound ‘out’. Owing to the physics of guitars, not every note will be ‘in’ on a tuner - the whole thing is a compromise.

I knew that but forgot about it - almost a kept secret - they make no fuss about it - but you do generally find excellent intonation on a PRS