Using a looper / sampler live

Emp_Fab

I bought a Digitech JamMan Stereo looper / sampler pedal and I'm very impressed with it.  As the only guitarist in the band, my aim was to use it to play my prerecorded rhythm parts when I have to do the solos as otherwise there's going to be a big hole where the rhythm guitar was.  I knew there was likely to be an issue with the timing of the sampled parts as the drummer isn't guaranteed to start at the same tempo every time, nor keep to it (but he's pretty good at not drifting to be fair), so I chose a looper pedal that allows real-time tempo adjustment, which mine does.  I experimented with it last week at rehearsals and it's very hard to tap-tempo it back into sync with the drummer in the middle of a song.  It's fine to set the tempo before you trigger the clip, but it's nigh-on impossible to lock it back in once it's playing - you can tap the correct current tempo in, but the beats will likely be out of sync with the song.

SO....  I'm trying to work out my best approach.  Using one of our covers, Quo's 'Rocking all over the world', I initially tried it with Rossi's part (the basic rock chug) recorded on the pedal in a 8-bar loop, whilst I played Parfitt's little riff up at the 8th fret.  This worked, but soon the drummer and the loop were out of sync and tap-tempoing it to correct it didn't work, as previously mentioned.

I'm now thinking that it might be better to have Parfitt's riff recorded as an 8-bar loop and I play Rossi's part live.  My logic is that I can tap-tempo it during the intro bars before I trigger it so it should be in sync when I do, very shortly afterwards.  Plus, if it goes Pete Tong for whatever reason, I can stop the sample and it won't be hugely missed if I'm playing the main rhythm part anyway.  I haven't yet tested this out mind.

My next hurdle is the solos.  I can't not play them live, so the rhythm part has to come from the looper.  I could have the same approach of tap-tempoing it before the solo starts so it ought to be in sync when I trigger it.  Obviously this will have to be a different sample patch on the pedal, so I'm going to end up tap-tempoing at the start, triggering one sample (Parfitt's riff) repeatedly then approaching the solos, switching patches, re-tap-tempoing and triggering Rossi's rhythm part while I play the solos - then back to the previous patch etc.

Am I biting off more than is reasonable ? Is there an easier way to approach this ?  Should I take up Irish dancing ?

octatonic

It will work right up until it doesn't and then will turn into a train wreck.
Have an escape plan if it all goes it shit, which it probably will at least 20% of the time.

Personally I don't think there is much 'good music' that can be accessed doing it this way.
Better to do it live, arrange it intelligently and play it will confidence.

steamabacus

I think you're onto a hiding for nothing trying to do it like this.

I've done a lot of looper-based stuff (I have both a JamMan SoloXT and an old Line 6 DL4) but the only way I'd ever use it with a live drummer would be using drone-like harmonic pads that have no strong rhythmic content. Stuff like that can happily swirl around the beat without problem.

Trying to use a looper for a rhythmic part really needs the whole band to be sync'd up with a click/midi. Otherwise, when it is vaguely in time it's likely to be stilted and forced - and when it isn't it'll be a car crash as noted above.


If you really MUST try it, I'd advise recording a ONE BAR loop set to 'single shot' and trigger it on the first beat of each bar - it may drift out over the bar but you'll be pulling it back at the beginning of the next.

There must surely be simpler ways of 'filling out the space'?

mistercharlie

Can you replace the drummer with a drum machine? 

Legionreturns

mistercharlie said:

Can you replace the drummer with a drum machine? 

Better still, replace the entire band with a trio+, then you can do what you like!

ftumch

Can you stick the loop output through a monitor for the drummer so he can stay in time? 

EricTheWeary

I’ve rarely seen people use loopers well live, I don’t mean incompetently they just sound like they are using loopers - all a bit sub Black Horse and the Cherry Tree.
 I had a binge on watching loads of stuff on YouTube by The Ruts a few weeks ago. On one live version they were using a looper  for a repeated fill part on Jah Wars - so playing the main rythmn part and just triggering a pre recorded loop of the short riff at the end of each verse ( I guess like the single shot approach suggested above). I guess that way around even if the tempo was slightly off it wouldn’t be terrible.
I think we’ve had examples on here of people using loopers on intros so the loop is dictating the tempo and even if the band then drifts the intro is over anyway. 

octatonic said:

Personally I don't think there is much 'good music' that can be accessed doing it this way.
Better to do it live, arrange it intelligently and play it will confidence.

For me ( as a listener at least) always this. I was thinking of Gary Moore covering Thin Lizzy songs live as an example but there must be loads and loads. 

Legionreturns

One sensible suggestion could be to have the drummer throw in a drum break, or a simple fill, immediately before you trigger your loop. Then you count it in together. I don't really know the song you're talking about though so that might be a shit idea! 

p90fool

Having had a looper nightmare at a gig in January (entirely user error on my part) I'd be inclined to get the bassist to add some kind of harmoniser to his rig, to fill in the mids with something appropriate under your solos. 

If it's mainly Quo type stuff then the ear will be drawn to the solo anyway, and as long as something is chugging in the right octave behind it it'll be far more danceable and fun to play than the stilted terror of looping it all. 

ESBlonde

A lead break without Second Guitars is generally preferable to an out of time up cock.
Unless you all play to click tracks and the parts are sequenced (as many artists successfully do), you are on a hiding to nothing. Wrong tool for the job.

Luminous

I use loopers all the time live but the whole idea is me and multiple loopers, in a band situation I wouldnt have a looper playing an important part unless the drummer could hear it and was a good enough drummer to stay locked to it. ( which most arent )
You could use one side of the stereo out put to be a click and feed it to him...but if he cant play to a click you are fucked

Emp_Fab

After attempting various options this evening, I am going to Wis every one of you.  There is no way I can use this thing in a band with the exception of intros and non-rhythmic parts - as you have all pointed out.  I tried recording Parfitt's riffs as single shot samples, but even though I was triggering them myself, the timing was shit.  It's just not possible.  Thanks for your combined wisdom !

Luminous

A looper takes a lot of practice.....keep at it....practice the riffs while you count aloud will make a TON of difference.

Luminous

is the riff on the offbeat?

richardhomer

mistercharlie said:

Can you replace the drummer with a drum machine? 

You only have to punch the information in once with a drum machine....

ICBM

I used to use a looper to play solos over a looped rhythm part, and with a decent drummer it was *just* possible to make it work with a typical 8-bar/20-second loop recorded in the previous verse or chorus, but it was sometimes a bit ropey over the last bar or two. The only song it really worked well for was with a solo played over the *intro* chords, when the drummer really pulled back and didn’t play as much of a continuous pattern.

But when I stopped using it after a software glitch which made me stop trusting it to work properly, I just worked out a new solo approach and sound which filled the space just as well, and I never missed it. I haven’t used one since, I actually feel more comfortable not relying on something like that.

Emp_Fab

It’s weird...  I’ve been over the moon with the pedal, reading the manual and discovering all the cool features.  Then I try it for a couple of times and realise that syncing to the drummer is a show-stopper.  I’m never going to get the drummer to play to a click, nor would I really want to ask him to, but without that link, the pedal is effectively useless to me. 

Guitar_Slinger

I'm guessing your idea to use the looper for rhythm parts was because you can't or don't want to have another guitarist in the band? I got into a 4-piece band years ago by convincing the only guitarist that he'd sound better with somebody (me) playing rhythm while he did the solos.

Emp_Fab

Haha!  Pretty much, yes.  It’s not that we can’t or don’t want to have another guitarist, we just haven’t got one and we’re already a five piece (electric pianist).  I might see what I can add to some songs with one-shot samples here and there, but it’s not going to do what I’d hoped.

Guitar_Slinger

Rather than synching your JamMan mid-solo, have you thought about punching the tempo into your drummer?

Punch him on the 1