CITES

Hattigol

Ok, so whilst I'm waiting for my new guitars to arrive from the fabulous Chicago Music Exchange, it suddenly dawned on me that they had made no mention of CITES - despite one of the guitars (the Jaguar) having a rosewood neck. Gulp....

I thought, should I ring CME and ask if they did an export licence? Surely a shop of that size who presumably deliver internationally on a regular basis would have done one - but just as surely, if they had, they would have told me, wouldn't they?

I was fretting (pun intended) that if I called them and asked about it, they might throw a spanner in the Customs works by doing a late form, so I sat quietly chewing my fingernails.

Paid my duty/VAT and waited. And BOOM, they have arrived today. No CITES docs but thank the Joseph, Mary and Jimi, no issues. Had read shit-scary experiences about guitars being impounded - destroyed even - for non-compliance but I seem to have dodged a bullet.

Seems very odd though that a significant international shipper is not up to speed on this?

And breathe....

guitars4you

lucky is all I can say - They should have acquired a copy - it could have been seized if spotted - So good news it has arrived

Now don't worry about it and just play and enjoy it

Hattigol

Lucky is 100% right, Mark. But equally, I would have felt harshly done by with them not having mentioned it. Wouldn't I have needed a copy of their export licence before I could get my import licence? 

Wasn't sure whether PayPal would have refunded me in that situation or not. But thankfully, it won't now arise. 

The sooner the damn rule is changed for guitars, the better... 

guitars4you

not sure about paypal protection - but IMO the store was out of order - it could have been seized at export and UK import - Yes technically you would have had to acquire a EU/UK import licence but you can't acquire this until the USA export licence is granted - Don't bother now at all

designerseye88

I inquired about a guitar form another dealer in the US similar to CME. They also made no mention of the CITES stuff. In the end i asked them because i didn't want any issues to arise. The guy unfortunately just brushed it off that it wasn't an issue. I got an air of them not really caring about it and were happy to chance it. 
The sooner this CITES stuff gets sorted the better! 

StuartMac290

I asked an American dealer about CITES issues with a guitar I was interested in and he emailed me back asking me to explain to him what CITES was! I passed at that point. 

guitars4you

The USA market is so big that they don't need to worry about a selection of sales within the USA - but as far as I'm aware they need it for Canada as well, let alone EU and elsewhere - maybe USA Customs just doesn't give a toss about it - I heard a story about a small exhibitor taking in about 6 guitars to show/display at NAMM this year - He  arrived at customs with them and asked about CITES etc and was told to just walk this way - he showed him the exit and told him to walk on by

Hattigol

I like that comment from you @guitars4you that the guy from the Departmenmt involved admitted at NAMM that they were unaware of there being a second-hand market for used guitars. Says it all really.

You wouldn't want to have to clean that guy's shoes after he'd been walking in the woods near bears, would you.....

hotpickups

That's makes me ask the question now about used guitars. If one has a guitar with a rosewood neck from around 2010 does that get covered by the CITES? Or is it after a certain date etc 

guitars4you

hotpickups said:

That's makes me ask the question now about used guitars. If one has a guitar with a rosewood neck from around 2010 does that get covered by the CITES? Or is it after a certain date etc 

if it is already in the EU/UK then no paper work required to keep, own or sell within the EU - only required when now sold out of the existing customs border

crunchman

hotpickups said:

That's makes me ask the question now about used guitars. If one has a guitar with a rosewood neck from around 2010 does that get covered by the CITES? Or is it after a certain date etc 

2010 will be ok if you are selling in the EU (UK after Brexit goes through).  If you were to sell across a border, I think you would need to get a certificate.

A guitar made from 2017 onwards should come with some kind of paperwork to say it is legitimate, but you would probably still need to apply for the relevant paperwork to import/export from anywhere other than the EU.

If you are travelling with a guitar as a personal possession then you should be ok.  I think you are allowed up to 10kg.  Even a guitar made from solid rosewood wouldn't have a mass of 10kg - unless it was a doubleneck.

Hattigol

crunchman said:

Even a guitar made from solid rosewood wouldn't have a mass of 10kg - unless it was a doubleneck.

That's not a guitar. That's an exercise machine.

Whitecat

guitars4you said:

The USA market is so big that they don't need to worry about a selection of sales within the USA - but as far as I'm aware they need it for Canada as well, let alone EU and elsewhere - maybe USA Customs just doesn't give a toss about it - I heard a story about a small exhibitor taking in about 6 guitars to show/display at NAMM this year - He  arrived at customs with them and asked about CITES etc and was told to just walk this way - he showed him the exit and told him to walk on by

Well, CITES doesn't apply to hand-carriage, although it's a broad "personal use" exemption IIRC.

Have heard that in Canada CITES-applicable shipments can currently only be received by air due to CITES-trained staff only being at certain airports and not land border crossings. This has apparently effed with at least one guitar manufacturer's attempts to ship new inventory to dealers, because obviously coming from the US it's far more economical to ship by ground - and suddenly, if there's rosewood, that's off the table too.

Hope these companies are lobbying hard!

Jez6345789

In all my dealings with the US they hate filling in paperwork especially government stuff which they all see as overreach. I remember trying to get a supplier to do a phytosanitary health cert on some plants I was importing. He would rather ship them without soil than bother.

Hick81

I almost bought a Danocaster from CME, I asked the question to them regarding CITES and this was their response...

Hi Chris, I can get this to you no problem....we have CITES permits.......the CITITES regulations only affect rosewood guitars made 2017 and newer. On a side note.. this Dano IS INCREDIBLE!! It's a house favorite! Pickups are Lollars. David Azizinamini

Chicago Music Exchange

WindmillGuitars

I sent a very nice Telecaster Plus Deluxe from UK to Cali last month - asked the seller to confirm he had the relevant import docs .. he claimed there was no such thing in existence. Now given that the guitar was pre-deadline I wasn't too worried as it was accompanied not only by the CITIES paperwork but also by all the original Fender paperwork which dated it etc. HOWEVER .. the guitar did end up in Customs care for two weeks while the importer sorted his paperwork out ..

They will catch you (despite being a lazy bunch)

Whitecat

Hick81 said:

I almost bought a Danocaster from CME, I asked the question to them regarding CITES and this was their response...

Hi Chris, I can get this to you no problem....we have CITES permits.......the CITITES regulations only affect rosewood guitars made 2017 and newer. On a side note.. this Dano IS INCREDIBLE!! It's a house favorite! Pickups are Lollars. David Azizinamini

Chicago Music Exchange

Well, he's half right in that the "regulations" only apply on 2017+ guitars, but you still need a "Pre-convention" permit for anything pre-2017.

Hick81

Whitecat said:

Hick81 said:

I almost bought a Danocaster from CME, I asked the question to them regarding CITES and this was their response...

Hi Chris, I can get this to you no problem....we have CITES permits.......the CITITES regulations only affect rosewood guitars made 2017 and newer. On a side note.. this Dano IS INCREDIBLE!! It's a house favorite! Pickups are Lollars. David Azizinamini

Chicago Music Exchange

Well, he's half right in that the "regulations" only apply on 2017+ guitars, but you still need a "Pre-convention" permit for anything pre-2017.

Yeah, spot on. I took this as 'don't worry, it's pre 2017 so it's not applicable'. But when i looked into it further, you still need the pre convention permit. I was then looking at a player grade 1967 335 from the states from a different seller, we even agreed the price, I asked him about the pre convention permit and all i got was radio silence. Literally, the guy didn't respond. 

Whitecat

Hick81 said:

Whitecat said:

Hick81 said:

I almost bought a Danocaster from CME, I asked the question to them regarding CITES and this was their response...

Hi Chris, I can get this to you no problem....we have CITES permits.......the CITITES regulations only affect rosewood guitars made 2017 and newer. On a side note.. this Dano IS INCREDIBLE!! It's a house favorite! Pickups are Lollars. David Azizinamini

Chicago Music Exchange

Well, he's half right in that the "regulations" only apply on 2017+ guitars, but you still need a "Pre-convention" permit for anything pre-2017.

Yeah, spot on. I took this as 'don't worry, it's pre 2017 so it's not applicable'. But when i looked into it further, you still need the pre convention permit. I was then looking at a player grade 1967 335 from the states from a different seller, we even agreed the price, I asked him about the pre convention permit and all i got was radio silence. Literally, the guy didn't respond. 

I’m surprised as CME is a big outfit and they share an owner with Reverb.com. Staff training needs to improve...

guitars4you

^^^^^^ - agree - it is okay whilst they are lucky with goods getting through - Get caught and a long argument between buyer and seller etc via  card company will commence - IMO, regarding such an issue, based on neglect by the seller, then they should have to refund accordingly - But I can see a brewing argument if goods are held/impounded at UK customs, as the seller will say not their fault - But IMO it still is their fault, as the CITES procedure needs to start at the point of the sale - Hope that makes sense

hotpickups

Personally I blame Gibson