Is violence creeping back into Football?

Skipped

I don't follow this sport closely.
Has the anti-Semitism been tackled?

Are the Gas Chamber sounds still tolerated when Spurs play a particular away fixture?

By "tolerated" I mean: Not abandoning the match when Spurs walk onto the pitch. Before the match has even started.

thing

randella said:

thing said:

I don't go into Lincoln centre on match day. It's not that I've seen any actual violence but the air is heavy with the threat of it. Continuous police sirens, gangs of pissed young guys shouting marching five abreast down the pavement etc etc. You would have to have a hide as thick as a rhino not to smell it in the air. Not pleasant.

@thing - I guess Manchester's big enough to absorb it.  Matchday or no, I would hazard a guess that marching five abreast down a pavement in town runs you the risk of a slap from some other group of randoms.  I suppose it's ameliorated by the sheer size of the populace, and the feel of threat is watered right down.  To normal levels for a city of its size anyway

Thing is Lincoln is a lovely quiet old touristy place and I guess you get used to it being a bit 'twee' if that's the right word. Crowds of footy supporters just don't seem to fit in. It's a bit like having football riots in Tunbridge Wells.

Fretwired

randella said:

thing said:

I don't go into Lincoln centre on match day. It's not that I've seen any actual violence but the air is heavy with the threat of it. Continuous police sirens, gangs of pissed young guys shouting marching five abreast down the pavement etc etc. You would have to have a hide as thick as a rhino not to smell it in the air. Not pleasant.

@thing - I guess Manchester's big enough to absorb it.  Matchday or no, I would hazard a guess that marching five abreast down a pavement in town runs you the risk of a slap from some other group of randoms.  I suppose it's ameliorated by the sheer size of the populace, and the feel of threat is watered right down.  To normal levels for a city of its size anyway

The Utd ground is outside Manchester town centre and in its own world. Been there a few times - nice ground from the point of view of seeing the game. Plenty of pubs nearby.

The old Tottenham ground could be a nightmare .. I stopped going as the violence in the late 70s was getting out of hand.

mudslide73

It's just moved away from the grounds. The only incident I've seen at the Hawthorns was a  Chelsea fan in the home end getting cuffed for goading the home fans. He got a bit carried away because they'd just won the league.

I saw someone punch a steward at a 20/20 Bears v Pears game at Edgbaston so it's not confined to football. Booze + Sun doesn't always equal fun.

I've also seen some frankly appalling behaviour from rugby players and fans on many occasions.. Just not much fighting.(except maybe on the pitch). 

EricTheWeary

According to Govt stats there were 4 arrests per 100,000 attendees in 2016-17 in England and Wales which is about ten times lower than the arrest rate at Glastonbury festival (71 for 175,000 from Somerset police). Probably different types of offences I guess but maybe it’s the perception we have of football crowds (shaven headed men shouting obscenities,etc) propped up by a few choice stories that makes it seem worse than it is. 

mudslide73 said:

It's just moved away from the grounds. The only incident I've seen at the Hawthorns was a  Chelsea fan in the home end getting cuffed for goading the home fans. He got a bit carried away because they'd just won the league.

Having worked at the court that covered the Hawthorns for a few years match day arrests weren’t a big feature of the work ( I’m struggling to remember any really although there must have been). 

RobDavies

Oh here we go again.....

There is the occasional flare up at football..... but compared to the late seventies and early eighties, it's nothing.

I've taken my kids to football since they were about three or four years old.    The worst fan behavior I've ever witnessed was rugby fans on the train to Twickenham for an England game.  The Army v Navy game also seems to attract some very "special" people indeed....

I reckon you're more likely to see a tear up at a rock gig than a football match these days.

Reverend

It is still a big problem in eastern Europe. Here those that want to fight arrange to meet away from the grounds and rarely seem to go for scarfers.  
As for hooligans being unemployed. They wouldn't be seen dead fighting in less that £600 worth of clothing.

Fretwired

EricTheWeary said:

According to Govt stats there were 4 arrests per 100,000 attendees in 2016-17 in England and Wales which is about ten times lower than the arrest rate at Glastonbury festival (71 for 175,000 from Somerset police). Probably different types of offences I guess but maybe it’s the perception we have of football crowds (shaven headed men shouting obscenities,etc) propped up by a few choice stories that makes it seem worse than it is. 

mudslide73 said:

It's just moved away from the grounds. The only incident I've seen at the Hawthorns was a  Chelsea fan in the home end getting cuffed for goading the home fans. He got a bit carried away because they'd just won the league.

Having worked at the court that covered the Hawthorns for a few years match day arrests weren’t a big feature of the work ( I’m struggling to remember any really although there must have been). 

The police don't tend to arrest people though .. too much paperwork .. pull them apart and send them on their way. There was a punch up where I live involving 50 youths (not football related - pub chucking out time). Police broke it up and sent them all on their way .. no arrests.

IvanMC

Violence is despicable. And it must be cut out before it gets literally enmeshed in the English footie culture, so to speak. Head for South America... go attend a footie match in Brazil or Argentina. Away fans are no longer allowed to attend games in Argentina... the gov't just needed to stop their people from... dying. Unbelievable.

Clarky

lonestar said:

Violence has never left football. I would never take my children to a football match, for example. However, I’ve taken my family to plenty of ice hockey matches and even since going to hockey games from the age of 4 there was never even a hint of violence or thuggery. It’s actually the main reason I personally don’t get involved with football what so ever.

I love ice hockey
once I got into it, I started losing interest in football really quickly

underdog

It's began, the Italian press fueling the fire before the game next week, stating they expect 5,000 Liverpool fans, 1,000 of which are known to be dangerous.

This is going to be horrible, the press are giving the ultras more reason to get ready and excuses to the police.

Hattigol

underdog said:

Every English club that has played in Italy in recent memory has had serious problems when out there, the English fans get blamed for it each time too

It always amazes me how easily swept under the carpet it is that 39 Italian fans were killed by rioting Liverpool fans at Heysel in 1985. A tragedy that's largely ignored by LFC but that's another story.

Each incident obviously has its own causes but let's not get too far up on our high horses here about those 'terrible' Italians when we're not entirely innocent of hooliganism as a nation ourselves.

p90fool

The statistics comparing arrests at football matches to festivals is not really useful imo.

Quietly asking some crusty and his girlfriend to turn out their pockets is a very different proposition to rounding up 5,000 chanting, screaming animals for threatening behaviour. 

It doesn't mean no offences were committed. 

We do need perspective though, I'm far more comfortable at any UK football match these days than I was at Ninian Park in the mid 70s. You can almost certainly avoid trouble now, it followed you around more in those days. 

underdog

Hattigol said:

underdog said:

Every English club that has played in Italy in recent memory has had serious problems when out there, the English fans get blamed for it each time too

It always amazes me how easily swept under the carpet it is that 55, yes FIFTY FIVE Italian fans were killed by rioting Liverpool fans at Heysel in 1985. A tragedy that's largely ignored by LFC but that's another story.

Each incident obviously has its own causes but let's not get too far up on our high horses here about those 'terrible' Italians when we're not entirely innocent of hooliganism as a nation ourselves.

Thing is mate, you're talking about 1985, this is now. Should we keep an eye on Germans because back in the 1940s some of them were up to no good?

Italian fans have caused trouble with every English team that has played there in the last 10 years. That suggests this isn't a Liverpool thing but an Italian problem.

There will always be a percentage of trouble makers, but the Italians have a very serious problem, UEFA, government and police turn a blind eye.

As for LFC ignoring Heysel disaster, that's complete and utterly unture, every anniversary players, club and fans do something to mark the occasion.

Hattigol

underdog said:

Thing is mate, you're talking about 1985, this is now. 

You're right. Liverpool fans (or any English fans) acting like hooligans just happened 33 years ago and never since. 
Silly me, talking about events so long ago.

 

merlin

We seem to be a pretty primitive species. When are we going to evolve? 

Hattigol

underdog said:

As for LFC ignoring Heysel disaster, that's complete and utterly unture, every anniversary players, club and fans do something to mark the occasion.

Utter bollocks, I'm afraid - see below. And that's why the majority of Juve fans turned their backs when LFC finally thought about trying to make amends 20 years too late - purely because a European fixture had drawn them together again.

https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/11635476/Heysel-disaster-of-1985-is-footballs-forgotten-tragedy-and-Liverpool-and-Juventus-minimal-reaction-prolongs-hurt.html

(Correction on my initial post - 39 dead, not 55. Apologies).

underdog

Hattigol said:

underdog said:

Thing is mate, you're talking about 1985, this is now. 

You're right. Liverpool fans (or any English fans) acting like hooligans just happened 33 years ago and never since. 
Silly me, talking about events so long ago.

 

You seem like a reasonable chap

All I was saying Italy have a huge issue with organised violence at football games, and quite often this is ignored or even helped by the local police. Roma in particular have a problem with stabbings on days of the game.

At no point did I say English football doesn't have it's issues, all I am saying is that giving England's past problems it's easy for other countires to point the finger at them rather than police their own problem.

Again a few things thrown at a bus by some over excited drunk dickheads is being compared to a man being left in a critical condition in hospital because he went to a football match. Amazing.

Also worth noting that Juve fans were killed when a wall collapsed as they tried to escape a section of stadium. A stadium that both teams had asked not to be used for the final, a stadium that Aresnal has stated was falling down several years before the final.

The event was caused by terrible organisation coupled with groups on dickheads from both teams fans  throwing rocks at each other, rocks that were on the floor from the stadium literally falling apart. Then when Liverpool fans rushed the juve fans a temporary fence (that was never going to be strong enough) broke, they retreated and a wall collapsed, this didn't however cause the deaths, suffocation of people getting crushed did. 

After the even Juve supporters rioted and fought police for 2 hours, with one fan seen to fire a starting pistol at police.

During the investigation in to the disaster several very high profile police officers were held to account, this was a disaster that would not have happened in a suitable stadium, or even with suitable organisation. Instead 2 sets of fans were separated only by a temporary chain fence.

Also worth noting that Liverpool beating Roma the year before in the final is what started the tensions between the Italian fans and the English.

Hattigol

underdog said:

Hattigol said:

underdog said:

Thing is mate, you're talking about 1985, this is now. 

You're right. Liverpool fans (or any English fans) acting like hooligans just happened 33 years ago and never since. 
Silly me, talking about events so long ago.

 

You seem like a reasonable chap

All I was saying Italy have a huge issue with organised violence at football games, and quite often this is ignored or even helped by the local police. Roma in particular have a problem with stabbings on days of the game.

At no point did I say English football doesn't have it's issues, all I am saying is that giving England's past problems it's easy for other countires to point the finger at them rather than police their own problem.

Again a few things thrown at a bus by some over excited drunk dickheads is being compared to a man being left in a critical condition in hospital because he went to a football match. Amazing.

Also worth noting that Juve fans were killed when a wall collapsed as they tried to escape a section of stadium. A stadium that both teams had asked not to be used for the final, a stadium that Aresnal has stated was falling down several years before the final.

The event was caused by terrible organisation coupled with groups on dickheads from both teams fans  throwing rocks at each other, rocks that were on the floor from the stadium literally falling apart. Then when Liverpool fans rushed the juve fans a temporary fence (that was never going to be strong enough) broke, they retreated and a wall collapsed, this didn't however cause the deaths, suffocation of people getting crushed did. 

After the even Juve supporters rioted and fought police for 2 hours, with one fan seen to fire a starting pistol at police.

During the investigation in to the disaster several very high profile police officers were held to account, this was a disaster that would not have happened in a suitable stadium, or even with suitable organisation. Instead 2 sets of fans were separated only by a temporary chain fence.

Also worth noting that Liverpool beating Roma the year before in the final is what started the tensions between the Italian fans and the English.

I am a reasonable chap, thanks. Not sure what I've posted that you're dismissing as unreasonable?

On the subject of reasonableness, you've just written 5 paragraphs which seem to be trying to suggest that the Heysel disaster wasn't really attributable to LFC fans. That's despite the fact that 26 Liverpool fans were charged and 14 convicted of manslaughter - and even the club itself (after 20 years) decided to issue an apology. If I used emoji's, I'd insert the 'shakes head' one here.

My original point was that we're hardly blameless as a nation when it comes to hooliganism. Never have been. And other than saying that I hope Ronaldo scores ten past you in the Final, that's me done on the subject.

Guitar_Slinger

Last night my dad reminded my about him and my grandad going to Rome for the 1977 European Cup final. My nan got the tickets as her and my grandad were season ticket holders and travelled around Europe watching Liverpool. But she's only 5 feet tall and didn't want to stand on a terrace behind the goal for the final.

So my dad and grandad went - there were Italians zipping about on scooters, nicking anything they could get their hands on and somebody who tried to pick my grandad's pocket while he went for a piss got a smack (my grandad at the time was a security guard in his late 40s).

IMHO the current reporting we're aware of is trying to whip up a story because of Liverpool/Juventus in 1985,