I guess we'll never understand why Gibson went bust....

ICBM

SimpleSimon said:

Am i wrong to think Gibson havent gone bust at all but have filed for bankruptcy protection allowing them to re finance?

Yes - they haven't actually gone bust... yet. But if they aren't able to refinance or restructure by the start of August, things start to get very tricky.

JezWynd

fandango said:
Yes, Apple made failures too. Ever heard of the Apple Newton? You won’t be alone. But you know what? Released in 1993 Apple Newton was the ancestor of what we now know as the iPad (introduced in 2010). The Newton was so far ahead of it’s time (by 17 years), it was seen as too good to be true, so it flopped.

I thought Newton failed because it was horribly expensive and the handwriting recognition wasn't very good.

fandango

Bigsby said:

fandango said:

Bigsby said:

manicguitarist said:

Why did Gibson go bust? Crappy business practices that's why. 

Also, they have a habit of discontinuing models just at the point when the public has noticed them, accepted them, and started buying them... only to introduce something else in it's place that no one has heard of. 

For example?

Bigsby said:

manicguitarist said:

Why did Gibson go bust? Crappy business practices that's why. 

... only to introduce something else in it's place that no one has heard of. 

Nobody heard of the iPhone until Apple made their announcement for a mobile phone nobody said they needed. 

Nobody had heard of the ‘casters (read Esquire) until Leo gave it to the masses back in 1950. How did that work out?

Yes, Apple made failures too. Ever heard of the Apple Newton? You won’t be alone. But you know what? Released in 1993 Apple Newton was the ancestor of what we now know as the iPad (introduced in 2010). The Newton was so far ahead of it’s time (by 17 years), it was seen as too good to be true, so it flopped.

My point, just because something is unknown when introduced doesn’t make it a bad or wrong product or decision. It means the sales guys aren’t doing their job properly. Sure Gibson like most companies have their failures. But without failures, we wouldn’t have the success stories. Oh yes, the Les Paul sold so poorly in 1960, Gibson pulled it in favour of what became the SG. Yet Gibson reintroduced the Les Paul about 9 years later. What gives, eh?

Not sure if you're intentionally trying to not get what I'm saying here... 

FWIW, Yes, I do indeed remember the Newton (didn't own one). Apple ended up dropping it, when it failed to sell. They didn't forget the idea, and got it right in the end... Sure, loads of products that have been introduced have been new... errr, isn't that bleeding obvious? That's why they're new... Doh! (But it's a bit pointless to compare tech products with traditional electric guitars).

What Gibson tend to do is revamp their range, often dramatically, each year. Thus the SG 50s 60s 70s Future tribute/SG Futura/SGJ/SG Supreme/SG Diablo/SG Supra and so on (just to look at SOME of the RECENT SG models) get discontinued just in time for people to be noticing them, or discovering a mate has one & liking it, etc., only to find it's no longer available. When introduced, they were all models no one knew anything about, but within one or two years they'd gone, replaced by another model no one is familiar with... I've certainly heard dealers expressing exactly this issue with Gibson's range.

Methinks there's too much Gibson bashing from certain quarters without realising that other manufacturers are also "guilty" of doing the same thing.

Now, did you know Fender produce an undocumented line called FSR - Fender Special Reserve? These don't feature on their website or in any marketing information. There have been a number of FSR guitars and amplifiers over the years. E.g. FSR Black & Blue Princeton Reverb amp, FSR Blues Junior III 'Bordeaux Reserve' amp, FSR Roasted Ash '56 Stratocaster Natural. Then, in 2015, Fender announced a "10 from 15" line of guitars, available in limited numbers, released one a month from March through December. Blink and you missed them. Each was snapped up PDQ. I know. I managed to snag one of the last available October guitars on a pre-order.

And did you know G&L introduced the limited 'Korina' Collection and the 'Savannah' Collection in such limited numbers they were only available for less than a year in each instance. Blink and .... oh let me guess, you missed those too?

I could go on.

So why aren't you also criticising Fender or G&L for introducing models no one knew anything or much about? Or guitars made available only in a single calendar year?

crunchman

Difference is that Fender tend to bring out a line and stick with it for a good while.  The Us Standard was around for a good while, and the American Series was around for a good while before that.  I suspect that the American Pro, which is the successor to those guitars, will also be around for while.

Some of the Mexican ranges have been essentially unchanged for years.

Yes they might have some limited editions, but they have a core range and they stick to it.  Some would argue there are still too many models, but at least they are reasonably consistent.  If I get a Classic Series Strat, I know what I'm getting.

Gibson, on the other hand, have been in this ridiculous model year thing where they completely revamp the whole range every year.

Bigsby

fandango said:

I could go on.

So why aren't you also criticising Fender or G&L for introducing models no one knew anything or much about? Or guitars made available only in a single calendar year?

Firstly, for the reason @crunchman has just pointed out. When I bought a MiM Strat in 2015 the specs had been the same for a while - the main change I was interested in was the satin neck finish, and I think that had been around for a couple of years. Just looked at the 2018 specs and I can't see any obvious difference. In that time they've changed the USA model's name, but it's not something they do every year. 

Now consider the Gibson SG Standard: Just some of the differences, I can't claim to have memorised them all! Also, ignoring the mostly cosmetic changes to knobs, poker chips, finish options, etc.
2014 gained coil splitters (with '57 pups, angel wing guard, slim taper neck profile from 2013)
2015 all the infamous '2015' changes, including increased neck width, brass nut...
2016 Two model ranges T & HP, with rounded neck profiles & 490/8 pups, no coil splitting, batwing guard
2017 Still T & HP, now with '57s, back to slim taper neck and angel wing guard
2018 Now the HP is substantially different, (maple cap, DIP switches, etc), the T gets '61 pups

And this is just the 'Standard' model - it's a minefield for anyone wanting to pick up a recent 2nd hand model, trying to work out which years had which specs. But the there's also the issue of how Gibson launch/rebrand/drop models all the time, so people barely have time to get familiar with a model before it's gone - this is very different from limited editions/limited runs - which Gibson ALSO do plenty of, and which obviously serve a purpose.

The SG Futura was a good example - not a limited edition, it was an SG with an interesting humbucker/P90 combo and a power boost switch, in a range of unusual colours. But it was only in the 2014 range. Obviously, sometimes models will have a short lifespan, but with Gibson it's the norm. To go back to your Apple analogy, Apple revise the iPad all the time, but this is because it's tech - it gets upgrades. It doesn't suddenly change to a square format, or get renamed the aPad or dropped in favour of the iTablet...

Secondly, this is a thread about Gibson, why on earth would I be criticising Fender or G&L's approach to selling guitars?

Sporky

manicguitarist said:

Oh, btw - hi everyone!

Dude! 

kt66

New ranges every year is an American tradition, going back to cars in the 50s and before,  they all do it, even Rickenbacker have a colour of the year,  and any change by them is massive deal. Gretsch (Fender) do it too. Without this, wouldn't places like Namm be dead?

As others have said in isolation the guitar business is healthy,  they just need a CEO who understands old gits don't like change, and youngsters want to emulate heroes.

ICBM

kt66 said:

New ranges every year is an American tradition, going back to cars in the 50s and before,  they all do it, even Rickenbacker have a colour of the year,  and any change by them is massive deal.

Yes, but Rickenbacker have their 'Color Of The Year' as a special edition alongside the rest of the normal line-up, which has remained largely unchanged for decades. It *is* true that they have a habit of changing some of the other specs apparently at random and complete without announcement or any relation to the year at all, including neck profiles...

I don't think anyone would think that Gibson having a 'model of the year', or a small range of them, would be a bad thing if they want to try out new ideas - it's the way they've changed the spec of the whole line-up so often that no-one has any idea what they're likely to do next which is the problem.

For example, if you buy a 2018 Les Paul Standard, what exactly are you going to get? Can anyone tell you for sure without looking it up? The majority of people who want a Les Paul Standard just want a standard Les Paul, like they've 'always' been made - two humbuckers, four knobs, standard machineheads, normal neck profile, etc. Not robot tuners, coil splits, chambered bodies, laminated fingerboards, wide necks, new logos...

Fine if you want to do something like a "2018 Les Paul Modern" with all that stuff, there will be a market for it. A small one.

Phil_aka_Pip

manicguitarist said:

Oh, btw - hi everyone!

Hi! Hope u r well ...

gibsongretschfan

ICBM said:

kt66 said:

New ranges every year is an American tradition, going back to cars in the 50s and before,  they all do it, even Rickenbacker have a colour of the year,  and any change by them is massive deal.

Yes, but Rickenbacker have their 'Color Of The Year' as a special edition alongside the rest of the normal line-up, which has remained largely unchanged for decades. It *is* true that they have a habit of changing some of the other specs apparently at random and complete without announcement or any relation to the year at all, including neck profiles...

I don't think anyone would think that Gibson having a 'model of the year', or a small range of them, would be a bad thing if they want to try out new ideas - it's the way they've changed the spec of the whole line-up so often that no-one has any idea what they're likely to do next which is the problem.

For example, if you buy a 2018 Les Paul Standard, what exactly are you going to get? Can anyone tell you for sure without looking it up? The majority of people who want a Les Paul Standard just want a standard Les Paul, like they've 'always' been made - two humbuckers, four knobs, standard machineheads, normal neck profile, etc. Not robot tuners, coil splits, chambered bodies, laminated fingerboards, wide necks, new logos...

Fine if you want to do something like a "2018 Les Paul Modern" with all that stuff, there will be a market for it. A small one.

Exactly.... a proper Les Paul, with proper construction and pickups and a couple of neck profiles built in the USA for under £1500.