Kitchen Extension

MrBump

We're thinking of getting a kitchen extension, removing an existing knackered conservatory on the back of the house and building something more permanent in its footprint.

I've never done anything like this - where does one start?  Is there a good place to find builders?  I can see the usual (check a trader etc).  Would I need to get architectural plans drawn up?  Or is this something that a builder will typically sort out?

ToneControl

planning permission?

ToneControl

you seem to be able to get away with putting a tiled-look insulated roof onto old conservatories nowadays

lovestrat74

Won't need planning permission if you get your skates on. We built out 6 metres from our house under permitted development.  For a limited period (I think until 2019) the gov doubled the size of permitted development, so for a terraced house it was 3 metres and is now 6 metres.

lovestrat74

Draw up as many different plans/ideals for what you want and think of all the uses you require for the space.  Try to plan out where everything is going to go rather than just build a space and try to fill it.

Octafish

Best thing to do first is get a list of what you want, what size roughly, what windows/doors etc Then get an archictect to knock up plans for what you want and get some idea of what is involved/required. I personally wouldn't leave it to a builder to control this. Once you have your plans you can look into getting builders round to give estimates/opinions etc, get the local council's advice. Building contro l are often quite helpful even if you're just making enquiries, check out you council's website, there shoulde be info on there.

You won't neccesarily need planning permission, you can build an extension up to certain percentage of the existing ground floorspace without needing planning permission. You will need building consent/control which will check you/your builder are adhering to the correct spec of foundations, construction methods, insulation, plumbing, waste water dispoal etc.

I wouldn't know where to look for builder, I do my own building work. I would suggest maybe word of mouth and local builders who are known and who's work you can see examples of.

boogieman

We had ours done a couple of years back. Had our dining room pushed out to square off the back of the house and a couple of walls knocked through to make a big kitchen diner. It works so much better than what we had before, which was a too-small kitchen and a dining room that was used to dry washing and got used as a bit of a dumping ground. 

Get your plans done first. A builder might have a tame architect but it doesn’t hurt to look for your own. Look for an architect that can give you some ideas: ours came up with some good things we hadn’t thought about. A good architect will have a decent relationship with the local Planning people and Building Control and will know what they look for in the plans, so should be able to avoid multiple applications.

We found a builder through Checkatrade and asked for some references and to look at work he’d done previously. Look for tradesmen that have a lot of feedback over a decent period of time, rather than lots of 5 star reviews in the last few months (it’s relatively easy to fix the ratings if you have enough friends/family to submit the reviews.) Good builders tend to be booked up in advance, so be prepared to wait a while; I’d be quite suspicious of one that can start immediately. With both builder and architect, it’s usually far better if you can find someone via personal recommendation 

You will get lots of mess. It can’t be helped but it is a pain. Kitchens are also one of the worst rooms to do because you obviously lose cooking facilities (and possibly your washing machine). We managed with a microwave and an electric ring rigged up in another room but it’s limited what you can cook. You’ll get fed up with takeaways fairly quickly. 

Be careful on your our choice of kitchen units. Stuff from B&Q, Homebase etc looks temptingly cheap but a lot of it is imported... which is fine until you find there are broken parts or bits missing and it takes weeks or months to get replacements. Much better to go with a supplier that keeps actual stock, we used Howdens but there are several others. Ikea does decent units too and they keep everything in stock, definitely worth a look. 

Fretwired

I'd find a local QS to run the project for you - it won't cost much and will give you peace of mind. They will know the local planning officers, building companies and architects and can ensure you pay the right price and don't get ripped off.

I have a neighbour in dispute with a builder over a kitchen extension. They made a number of basic errors including not having a proper contract. A friend of mine is a QS and he tells some frightening stories about dodgy builders and poor design/planning leading to costs escalating.

Octafish

Fretwired said:

I'd find a local QS to run the project for you - it won't cost much and will give you peace of mind. They will know the local planning officers, building companies and architects and can ensure you pay the right price and don't get ripped off.

I have a neighbour in dispute with a builder over a kitchen extension. They made a number of basic errors including not having a proper contract. A friend of mine is a QS and he tells some frightening stories about dodgy builders and poor design/planning leading to costs escalating.

Whilst in no way a defence of dodgy builders, the problem is so many people want work done for next to nothing and often have little appreciation of the cost and time involved in doing a building/renovation job properly. Glad I'm out of it... for now

boogieman

I forgot to say, get at least three quotes for the job. Talk to the builders to see what ideas they can come up with. You’ll get a feel for who is professional. One guy who put in a quote for us didn’t measure up anything (didn’t even bring a tape measure in fact), didn’t write down any details and didn’t submit a written quote, just sent a text saying “I’ll do the work for X amount”. It came in at half the price of the others and seemed so ludicrously low that I wasn’t sure he was even looking at the same job. 

MrBump

Octafish said:

Best thing to do first is get a list of what you want, what size roughly, what windows/doors etc Then get an archictect to knock up plans for what you want and get some idea of what is involved/required. I personally wouldn't leave it to a builder to control this. Once you have your plans you can look into getting builders round to give estimates/opinions etc, get the local council's advice. Building contro l are often quite helpful even if you're just making enquiries, check out you council's website, there shoulde be info on there.

You won't neccesarily need planning permission, you can build an extension up to certain percentage of the existing ground floorspace without needing planning permission. You will need building consent/control which will check you/your builder are adhering to the correct spec of foundations, construction methods, insulation, plumbing, waste water dispoal etc.

I wouldn't know where to look for builder, I do my own building work. I would suggest maybe word of mouth and local builders who are known and who's work you can see examples of.

Thanks for the responses guys - I spoke to a local building firm, and they recommended exactly this - get the plans, as then you can get normalised quotes from multiple contractors.  It's advice like that that puts them top of the list in my book!

sw67

I did a kitchen extension a few years ago under permitted development. I was also advised to get a certificate of lawfulness so if i sell at a later date i can prove the building work was legal

lovestrat74

Because we knew what we wanted and designed the extension ourselves we didn't hire an architect. We got a structural engineer to create technical drawings from our plans so saved a few bob there.  I guess it depends on what you have in mind and if you need help with the design or not.

For builders try and get someone in that has worked with friends or family before, so you have a good reference.

Dominic

Be properly diligent;
Get an Architect
Quantity Surveyor
Party wall Surveyor (if there is any Party wall issue )
Project Manager
HSE consultant
Then there will be no money left to pay a builder so you will definitely save on building costs in the long run

Fuengi

You CANNOT build any more than 4 meters on a detached house or 3 meters on a semi detached under Permitted Development. It in Neighbour Notification and it still needs an application. 

Even if it is within the distance for PD there are other aspects of the design which might mean you need to submit a householder planning application.

I run an architectural design business an I never give clients advice on PD v Planning as you will not know unless you speak to the local authority.

Check before you build! 

Iamnobody

We’ve just done one - although we also did a partial garage conversion and a new upstairs bathroom so it was two storey and a bit more involved.

Think about the costs before you go too far. You could probably expect:

Over £2k in architect, planning and BC fees.

£30-40k for the building work
£10-20k for a reasonable kitchen

The first step is to get an architect on board. Just like builders - approach 2 or 3, meet with them, get their service and fees explained and try and get as much out the initial meeting as possible.

Make sure they design what you want and don’t be afraid to say you don’t like it or make suggestions on what you want to have.

Dont even think about builders yet!

Fretwired

Dominic said:

Be properly diligent;
Get an Architect
Quantity Surveyor
Party wall Surveyor (if there is any Party wall issue )
Project Manager
HSE consultant
Then there will be no money left to pay a builder so you will definitely save on building costs in the long run

^^

This. Whoever gave @Dominic a lol is a twat ...

If you use a local QS (Quantity Surveyors) they will handle everything bar the architectural work and building - they can help find an architect and a builder and do the necessary.

And get a contract. A QS can do that.

Dominic

My post was meant to be ironic and a joke ..........somebody having a sense of humour by-pass......but seriously .....
I have seen so many projects where the professional fees outweigh the build cost and heard so many clients rationalise at the end that it would have been considerably cheaper if the builder had ripped them off for £25k
 A QS will do all the things you mention and be able to propose a JCT (small works )contract 2010 edition either with or without Design Portion as appropriate to the related "Scope of Works " together with a payment valuation schedule and suitable retainer agreement with an interfaced Defects Liability Period.
They will also be able to value the project; propose a schedule for tender pricing and advise on tender invitation and Treat.
That is how the commercial world works.None of that expertise comes for free.
Back in the real world of a little single storey kitchen extension grown out of a conservatory the costs of properly indemnified professional cost will outweigh the overall project value viability.Bizarrely in Europe .......,Spain,Germany, Switzerland and even Italy people wouldn't consider as much as swapping out the fridge without getting an Architect /Technician to draw it and consult/supervise but the British and French have an aversion to paying for this kind of professional advice and tend to devalue it.
In reality ,a good traditional family building firm with a local reputation and works to show will make a perfectly decent job of the whole thing on the basis of an initial annotated drawing.
The other thing that makes me laugh is how people think that getting firms to tender for piddly little projects is a winning approach..........believe me, nobody wants to be in a race to the bottom and anybody can work for nothing......you will get the best prices from those with the least work or demand for their service and you will get the service and workmanship that goes with it together with the cost saving,substitutions,shoddiness and arguments over "extras" and other bad feeling that accompanies it and allows them to escape the contract breaking even.
I have never yet seen the QS that wins an argument with a half reasonable builder but I have seen a clients QS and the contractors QS on a commercial project settle a disagreement on £100,000 worth of extra items over a game of table -tennis !
 

Stuckfast

Don't buy Howdens own brand electrical goods. They're shit.

underdog

@Iamnobody up to 20k for a reasonable kitchen, for 20k I'd expect the best kitchen in the world and chef to work in it full time

A reasonable kitchen can be had for a couple of grand, 10k should be mega hi spec and top quality, 20k should mean you're the ruler of a country.

Iamnobody

underdog said:

@Iamnobody up to 20k for a reasonable kitchen, for 20k I'd expect the best kitchen in the world and chef to work in it full time

A reasonable kitchen can be had for a couple of grand, 10k should be mega hi spec and top quality, 20k should mean you're the ruler of a country.

I can only speak from experience but I tried Wren,B&Q, Magnet, and a couple of others but ended up going to a local independent and got ours slightly cheaper than those chains above and it’s decent quality with painted doors as opposed to foil wrapped.

I don’t see how you could get a reasonable kitchen (fitted) for two grand. Again in my experience it costs anywhere between £1k and £2k just to fit one!

Basic appliances at ~ £200 each comes in at a grand...

A stone marble or quartz worktop will be at least a couple of grand...

And if you are doing a kitchen extension then typically you will be enlarging so buying more units and spending more.

I don’t think my £10-20k comment is wildly out...