Boutique pickups and their prices

OilCityPickups

The most expensive part of a 'PAF' replica is a good 'period correct' cover. These can add £40+ to the price of an individual pickup. 
My own Beanos are seen as very much upper mid price, at £95.00 each uncovered. However add a pair of aged, 'Timemachine' covers, and you are talking £135.00 each £270.00 the pair. They are perfectly fine open topped, in fact some would argue 'better', and a pair of standard modern covers would only add £20 to the uncovered price ... however people still seem to want posh covers.

Here are a few interesting facts: China has pretty much a world exclusive on alnico, and every humbucker magnet you will have in your boutique pickups will come from China ... from, most likely, the same factory.
Unlike 60 years ago, there is really only one PVA plain enamel wire manufacturer: Elektrisola ... again, all your pickups will have Electrisola wire ... likely bought from the same wholesaler. 
Unless the pickup maker is relatively large, they will be buying in baseplates, bobbins, pole shoes and slugs and that will be from one of perhaps only three suppliers worldwide (in this country, as far as I know only one pickup maker is large enough to commission their own parts direct from manufacturers).  

So aside from packaging, marketing and 'winding ethos' when you buy high end PAFs you are buying the same parts (providing they only use high end options), no matter the maker. 

Research and development time is not cheap, overheads for professional pickup makers involve having to eat and pay the rent ... so you pays your money and you takes your choice. 

GoldenEraGuitars

mbe said:

The price of admission is set high to keep out the riff-raff.

Plenty of rich riff raffers out there mate

RaymondLin

I got some single coil Porter pick ups on my tele and they make  PAF, $130 each so $260 for 2, which isn't too bad!

http://www.porterpickups.com/products/pickups/humbucker-pickups/anthem-paf/

Click on the sound sample at the bottom, sounds lovely. 

hotpickups

RaymondLin said:

I got some single coil Porter pick ups on my tele and they make  PAF, $130 each so $260 for 2, which isn't too bad!

http://www.porterpickups.com/products/pickups/humbucker-pickups/anthem-paf/

Click on the sound sample at the bottom, sounds lovely. 

Wow another pickup winder I've never heard of Ill check them out but I wouldn't buy outside of the uk not when we have some of the best pickup makers right here on our home turf

RiftAmps

Here's an idea @hotpickups ....

Why don't you come up here to the workshop, I'll install a range of boutique PAF clones into your own guitar that you can try blind. Once you've picked your favourite I'll tell you what they are and how much they cost. That way you'll know which ones (if any) work for you. No 'snake oil', no marketing BS, just your ears and fingers.

Deal?

hotpickups

RiftAmps said:

Here's an idea @hotpickups ....

Why don't you come up here to the workshop, I'll install a range of boutique PAF clones into your own guitar that you can try blind. Once you've picked your favourite I'll tell you what they are and how much they cost. That way you'll know which ones (if any) work for you. No 'snake oil', no marketing BS, just your ears and fingers.

Deal?

Damn that's an awesome deal. That'll take a lot of your time though wouldn't it Chris?

OilCityPickups

There is one issue that gets me fired up however: when a fellow pickup maker decides to put a reproduction PAF waterslide on a pickup baseplate. This is just as blatant fakery as putting a Gibson badge on a Chibson. A well executed relic treated PAF clone, with an authentic cover and PAF transfer could fool a later guitar buyer into believing they were getting a genuine 50s PAF.

hotpickups

TheGuitarWeasel said:

There is one issue that gets me fired up however: when a fellow pickup maker decides to put a reproduction PAF waterslide on a pickup baseplate. This is just as blatant fakery as putting a Gibson badge on a Chibson. A well executed relic treated PAF clone, with an authentic cover and PAF transfer could fool a later guitar buyer into believing they were getting a genuine 50s PAF.

Yes I must admit I had always thought that was a bit naughty. Cos it would probably fool me

soma1975

mbe said:

The price of admission is set high to keep out the riff-raff.

Tell that to the Bare Knuckle Riff Raff 

soma1975

As to the rest I certainly know of one small scale maker who has his own bobbins made (and stamped). 

RiftAmps

hotpickups said:

RiftAmps said:

Here's an idea @hotpickups ....

Why don't you come up here to the workshop, I'll install a range of boutique PAF clones into your own guitar that you can try blind. Once you've picked your favourite I'll tell you what they are and how much they cost. That way you'll know which ones (if any) work for you. No 'snake oil', no marketing BS, just your ears and fingers.

Deal?

Damn that's an awesome deal. That'll take a lot of your time though wouldn't it Chris?

Probably less time than I spend replying to your forum posts

Its a serious offer by the way

OilCityPickups

soma1975 said:

As to the rest I certainly know of one small scale maker who has his own bobbins made (and stamped). 

As you probably are aware the correct material for PAF bobbins is butyl butyrate, and there are very few sources of bobbins made of that completely obsolete plastic compound. The majority of bobbins available these days are ABS or various PVC compounds. That having been said the bobbin material makes no difference at all to the sound of the pickup, only the bobbin construction: Original butyl ones and modern reproductions have no core airspaces, whereas cheaper PVC far eastern ones have a skeleton core with lots of fresh air inside. My own experiments have shown that solid core bobbins ... no matter what they are made of ... help to make pickups that are more resistant to feedback than 'hollow core' ones. This means you can use unpotted pickups at higher gain levels if they have old style bobbins. It's a tiny point, but one that helps a PAF to get great 'open' rock tones while staying relatively squeal free.

I know BK have their bobbins made ... and indeed their covers and baseplates ... in the UK, glad to hear there is another. For most of us the tooling costs are far too high for the volume we sell.

Below: Top bobbin is a cheaper PVC Chinese made one. Lower one is a correct reproduction PAF one. The PAF style one has a slightly wider winding area too.

hotpickups

RiftAmps said:

hotpickups said:

RiftAmps said:

Here's an idea @hotpickups ....

Why don't you come up here to the workshop, I'll install a range of boutique PAF clones into your own guitar that you can try blind. Once you've picked your favourite I'll tell you what they are and how much they cost. That way you'll know which ones (if any) work for you. No 'snake oil', no marketing BS, just your ears and fingers.

Deal?

Damn that's an awesome deal. That'll take a lot of your time though wouldn't it Chris?

Probably less time than I spend replying to your forum posts

Its a serious offer by the way

Ha ha probably right LOL. I'll be in touch. Could the following week if that works for you @RiftAmps ? I can catch up with Adrian too whilst there

hotpickups

TheGuitarWeasel said:

soma1975 said:

As to the rest I certainly know of one small scale maker who has his own bobbins made (and stamped). 

As you probably are aware the correct material for PAF bobbins is butyl butyrate, and there are very few sources of bobbins made of that completely obsolete plastic compound. The majority of bobbins available these days are ABS or various PVC compounds. That having been said the bobbin material makes no difference at all to the sound of the pickup, only the bobbin construction: Original butyl ones and modern reproductions have no core airspaces, whereas cheaper PVC far eastern ones have a skeleton core with lots of fresh air inside. My own experiments have shown that solid core bobbins ... no matter what they are made of ... help to make pickups that are more resistant to feedback than 'hollow core' ones. This means you can use unpotted pickups at higher gain levels if they have old style bobbins. It's a tiny point, but one that helps a PAF to get great 'open' rock tones while staying relatively squeal free.

I know BK have their bobbins made ... and indeed their covers and baseplates ... in the UK, glad to hear there is another. For most of us the tooling costs are far too high for the volume we sell.

Below: Top bobbin is a cheaper PVC Chinese made one. Lower one is a correct reproduction PAF one. The PAF style one has a slightly wider winding area too.

Top tip @TheGuitarWeasel I'll hold onto that information Thanks

OilCityPickups

hotpickups said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

soma1975 said:

As to the rest I certainly know of one small scale maker who has his own bobbins made (and stamped). 

As you probably are aware the correct material for PAF bobbins is butyl butyrate, and there are very few sources of bobbins made of that completely obsolete plastic compound. The majority of bobbins available these days are ABS or various PVC compounds. That having been said the bobbin material makes no difference at all to the sound of the pickup, only the bobbin construction: Original butyl ones and modern reproductions have no core airspaces, whereas cheaper PVC far eastern ones have a skeleton core with lots of fresh air inside. My own experiments have shown that solid core bobbins ... no matter what they are made of ... help to make pickups that are more resistant to feedback than 'hollow core' ones. This means you can use unpotted pickups at higher gain levels if they have old style bobbins. It's a tiny point, but one that helps a PAF to get great 'open' rock tones while staying relatively squeal free.

I know BK have their bobbins made ... and indeed their covers and baseplates ... in the UK, glad to hear there is another. For most of us the tooling costs are far too high for the volume we sell.

Below: Top bobbin is a cheaper PVC Chinese made one. Lower one is a correct reproduction PAF one. The PAF style one has a slightly wider winding area too.

Top tip @TheGuitarWeasel I'll hold onto that information Thanks

Also factors that make correct PAF reproductions more feedback resistant: closer fitting pole shoes (keeper bars) that are machined rather than stamped, and baseplates that are threaded to the pole screws (modern baseplates are not, and have oversize holes for ease of assembly).

hotpickups

TheGuitarWeasel said:

hotpickups said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

soma1975 said:

As to the rest I certainly know of one small scale maker who has his own bobbins made (and stamped). 

As you probably are aware the correct material for PAF bobbins is butyl butyrate, and there are very few sources of bobbins made of that completely obsolete plastic compound. The majority of bobbins available these days are ABS or various PVC compounds. That having been said the bobbin material makes no difference at all to the sound of the pickup, only the bobbin construction: Original butyl ones and modern reproductions have no core airspaces, whereas cheaper PVC far eastern ones have a skeleton core with lots of fresh air inside. My own experiments have shown that solid core bobbins ... no matter what they are made of ... help to make pickups that are more resistant to feedback than 'hollow core' ones. This means you can use unpotted pickups at higher gain levels if they have old style bobbins. It's a tiny point, but one that helps a PAF to get great 'open' rock tones while staying relatively squeal free.

I know BK have their bobbins made ... and indeed their covers and baseplates ... in the UK, glad to hear there is another. For most of us the tooling costs are far too high for the volume we sell.

Below: Top bobbin is a cheaper PVC Chinese made one. Lower one is a correct reproduction PAF one. The PAF style one has a slightly wider winding area too.

Top tip @TheGuitarWeasel I'll hold onto that information Thanks

Also factors that make correct PAF reproductions more feedback resistant: closer fitting pole shoes (keeper bars) that are machined rather than stamped, and baseplates that are threaded to the pole screws (modern baseplates are not, and have oversize holes for ease of assembly).

Blimey more involved than I originally thought 

thegummy

vale said:

to answer the OPs post heading question...

because he can (ask that much for it) and because there are enough people willing to pay that much for it (because they can).
in summary, because that's its essential 'commodity value' (economics jargon).

the intrinsic value of the materials + labour + promo (costs) don't have to be in anyway related to the asking price. in a capitalist market economy, desire, supply & demand dictate value, above any intrinsic material value.

drivers behind the consumers' desire will be all sorts of things.

some will perceive (or imagine they percieve) genuine objective techincal worth, or subjective tonal qualities, that they consider to have a value equivalent to the relative price difference between that and other brands.
some will be motivated by subjective personal things that are little to do with the item itself & more to do with their own issues; insecurity/low self-esteem, desire for peergroup approval, self-reward-reflex (i deserve an upgrade, i have worked 60 hours this week, etc).

it's the same old same old. each to their own. as long as no one is getting exploited or abused by this business (which doesn't seem to be the case) then i don't have a major issue with it.
a lot of so-called business is exploitation & abuse. that's what i get stressed about. eg, asian kids who should be in school & enjoying childhood making high value trainers for a penny a day. or village water supplies redirected away from people & towards factories.

personally speaking, fancy designer musical kit is a game i'm not into. having not much money means i have to be totally ruthless about new things. unless i can hear significant subjective quality differences, or perceive significant material quality differences, between the item in question and something less expensive, i don't buy. £300 is a 'best' guitar or bass to me, not a single pickup.
but my situation is different to someone else's. if you own your own home and make a decent living, then it's potentially a different equation with a different conclusion.
& it's nice to have nice things. i buy make-up & perfume (modestly priced but hardly essentials), so am not lecturing in my hair shirt.

ultimately business is business, & since 'the anarcho-syndicalist communal ownership party' is not a force to be reckoned with at the british ballot box (this time next year?), this is the way things are.

another 3am essay!

Totally agree with this point and it's what I've been saying in the thread too.

An idea I'd propose, though, on the exploitation front - it could be argued that the ignorant are being exploited. There definitely seems to be some people (I just mean in general) who either fully or partially believe that when prices are set they're justified in some way based on manufacturing costs, quality differences etc. So these people are only paying more because they believe that they must be getting more or else the price wouldn't be so high. When, as as been pointed out, the reality is that the price is limited by nothing other than whether someone is willing to pay it.

Something that always sticks in my head was when I was young and my mate was tasked with getting the shopping in while his parents were on holiday or something and when he was looking around for coffee or something I asked which one he was looking for and he said he was just looking for the most expensive one because that will be the best. As if the companies will all be completely honest about how good their product is in relation to others and price accordingly. There actually is sections of most markets based purely around the idea that some people will pay very high prices for things so things are sold at that price purely to meet that demand that isn't based on any real life qualities.

Having said all that, I don't think the ignorant rich consumers should be protected from themselves or anything; I think the supply and demand pricing (at least for things like pickups, not everything) is fine. Just observing that not everyone looks at the product for what it is then decides if the price is reasonable - they look at the price and think that it indicates honestly the quality of a product.

Roland

hotpickups said:

RiftAmps said:

hotpickups said:

RiftAmps said:

Here's an idea @hotpickups ....

Why don't you come up here to the workshop, I'll install a range of boutique PAF clones into your own guitar that you can try blind. Once you've picked your favourite I'll tell you what they are and how much they cost. That way you'll know which ones (if any) work for you. No 'snake oil', no marketing BS, just your ears and fingers.

Deal?

Damn that's an awesome deal. That'll take a lot of your time though wouldn't it Chris?

Probably less time than I spend replying to your forum posts

Its a serious offer by the way

Ha ha probably right LOL. I'll be in touch. Could the following week if that works for you @RiftAmps ? I can catch up with Adrian too whilst there

Any chance of recordings? I am sure lots of people will be interested. 

hotpickups

Roland said:

hotpickups said:

RiftAmps said:

hotpickups said:

RiftAmps said:

Here's an idea @hotpickups ....

Why don't you come up here to the workshop, I'll install a range of boutique PAF clones into your own guitar that you can try blind. Once you've picked your favourite I'll tell you what they are and how much they cost. That way you'll know which ones (if any) work for you. No 'snake oil', no marketing BS, just your ears and fingers.

Deal?

Damn that's an awesome deal. That'll take a lot of your time though wouldn't it Chris?

Probably less time than I spend replying to your forum posts

Its a serious offer by the way

Ha ha probably right LOL. I'll be in touch. Could the following week if that works for you @RiftAmps ? I can catch up with Adrian too whilst there

Any chance of recordings? I am sure lots of people will be interested. 

Ha ha ...... no

RiftAmps

hotpickups said:

Roland said:

hotpickups said:

RiftAmps said:

hotpickups said:

RiftAmps said:

Here's an idea @hotpickups ....

Why don't you come up here to the workshop, I'll install a range of boutique PAF clones into your own guitar that you can try blind. Once you've picked your favourite I'll tell you what they are and how much they cost. That way you'll know which ones (if any) work for you. No 'snake oil', no marketing BS, just your ears and fingers.

Deal?

Damn that's an awesome deal. That'll take a lot of your time though wouldn't it Chris?

Probably less time than I spend replying to your forum posts

Its a serious offer by the way

Ha ha probably right LOL. I'll be in touch. Could the following week if that works for you @RiftAmps ? I can catch up with Adrian too whilst there

Any chance of recordings? I am sure lots of people will be interested. 

Ha ha ...... no

Absolutely, we’ll do a whole YT video shootout with the pickups. Might as well make the most of it! Great idea