PAF & Early Patent number pickups - Any significant differences?

designerseye88

With the recent posts about pickups and the huge rise in price of what some genuine PAF's are fetching I wondered wether there is much difference between PAF's of the late 50's and early Patent number pickups. Their is a big price difference between the two but did anything major change when the pickups became patented? 

Funkfingers

The decal changed. The manufacturing tolerances and personnel did not.

designerseye88

Funkfingers said:

The decal changed. The manufacturing tolerances and personnel did not.

Do you think their is such a significant price difference purely because of the association with late 50's bursts? 

WezV

Funkfingers said:

The decal changed. The manufacturing tolerances and personnel did not.

Maybe not at first.  It’s safe to assume an early 60’s patent number sticker is equivalent to a PAF.  Can you say the same by the mid 70’s when they eventually moved to a stamp?

i think the reason for a lower value on a patent number sticker is that they exist with that sticker over a 12-15 year period, rather than 4 or 5

richardhomer

In the dark recesses if my mind, I recall something about magnet length. @TheGuitarWeasel will know for sure....

ATB_Guitars

Early Patent sticker pickups are the same as early 60’s PAFs which have the shorter Alnico 2 or 5 magnet and would on an auto stop machine with a typical DC resistance of around 7.5k 

59 PAF’ had longer magnets and no auto stop on the winding machines which gave a much wider range of DC resistances and slightly more tonal variety. 

Other main difference is at least 50% on the price. 

FelineGuitars

The Pat Number pickups I took out of a Jan '63 SG had a controlled auto stop turn count, but had long A5 magnets, standard plain enamel AWG42, so kind of transitional . I think changes happened slowly as existing components got used up and the new ones phased in

OilCityPickups

FelineGuitars said:

The Pat Number pickups I took out of a Jan '63 SG had a controlled auto stop turn count, but had long A5 magnets, standard plain enamel AWG42, so kind of transitional . I think changes happened slowly as existing components got used up and the new ones phased in

There was a considerable cross over of pickups and components as Jonathon says. You can find a number of early early sixties PAT number pickups that have a 59 wind bobbins and pigtails (the latter both black) but long magnets. It makes sense that pickups could be wound faster than guitars could be made, so a fair number of essentially PAFs, got patent stickers, and 'PAF magnets' got used with the later wind ... till the parts bins were fully restocked. My own Masterwound PAT 63 is a reproduction of one of those interesting 'transition' pickups.

mr-mac

Read here... Has a lot of detail on changes over years and so on https://guitarconnoisseurmagazine.com/paf-archaeology-digging-up-the-history-of-classic-humbucker-tone/

peteri

I have a guitar with a PAF and an early PAT in.

Both are utterly wonderful, I'm happy to have the PAF - it's a nice 'investment' but truth be told if I needed to replace it, I'd get a PAT

guitars4you

I'm sure there will be specialists on FB who have more info on this than me, but reading the Beauty of the Burst book there is talk in there on this subject - They hint/claim that by the time the pat numbered models became available they were more consistent with materials, windings etc - Almost more of a PAF template - Early models were almost made on an ad-hoc basis, with changes in magnets and windings producing variations - So certainly not better, but not always the same regarding matching DNA

guitars4you

mr-mac said:

Read here... Has a lot of detail on changes over years and so on https://guitarconnoisseurmagazine.com/paf-archaeology-digging-up-the-history-of-classic-humbucker-tone/

some good info on there - also supporting comments made in the last few days on another OP, by Ash  ( @TheGuitarWeasel ) regarding supply today of wire

OilCityPickups

guitars4you said:

mr-mac said:

Read here... Has a lot of detail on changes over years and so on https://guitarconnoisseurmagazine.com/paf-archaeology-digging-up-the-history-of-classic-humbucker-tone/

some good info on there - also supporting comments made in the last few days on another OP, by Ash  ( @TheGuitarWeasel ) regarding supply today of wire

Read carefully ... as the guy says, pickups were most often NOT fitted to guitars in the same year of manufacture ... true PAFs and hybrids were being fitted WAY into the sixties as old stock was being used up. 

mr-mac

TheGuitarWeasel said:

guitars4you said:

mr-mac said:

Read here... Has a lot of detail on changes over years and so on https://guitarconnoisseurmagazine.com/paf-archaeology-digging-up-the-history-of-classic-humbucker-tone/

some good info on there - also supporting comments made in the last few days on another OP, by Ash  ( @TheGuitarWeasel ) regarding supply today of wire

Read carefully ... as the guy says, pickups were most often NOT fitted to guitars in the same year of manufacture ... true PAFs and hybrids were being fitted WAY into the sixties as old stock was being used up. 

Iirc esspecially the gold ones

OilCityPickups

mr-mac said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

guitars4you said:

mr-mac said:

Read here... Has a lot of detail on changes over years and so on https://guitarconnoisseurmagazine.com/paf-archaeology-digging-up-the-history-of-classic-humbucker-tone/

some good info on there - also supporting comments made in the last few days on another OP, by Ash  ( @TheGuitarWeasel ) regarding supply today of wire

Read carefully ... as the guy says, pickups were most often NOT fitted to guitars in the same year of manufacture ... true PAFs and hybrids were being fitted WAY into the sixties as old stock was being used up. 

Iirc esspecially the gold ones

Think of it this way: you are mass producing (or trying to) guitars and pickups at the same time. Which takes longer? It's pretty obvious that pickups require assembly only, no hand finishing or waiting for lacquer to dry etc etc ... you can put together dozens while one body is being prepared. So you build and stockpile them, so that when the guitars are ready there will be pickups ready. You don't date the made-up pickups ... you simply bung them all into a parts bin to be used as required. Gold sells less readily than nickel ... so they sit in the bin longer. As you swap over to short magnets etc on the pickups you don't throw away your old made-up stock ... you simply add the new stock to it. 

You have to remember that Gibson had no idea that what they were producing pickup wise was 'special' ... they were simply trying to keep pace with demand and not waste old stock.