Needing to replace tuners on Gibson Les Paul Special - are the current Kluson Deluxe decent quality?

Gan_Ainm

My recently purchased 2011 model Gibson Les Paul Special needs the tuners replacing. I've had a tech do a set up and check/sort the nut for any issues, but it's still going out of tune (plus the cover on one has been knocked out of place). It's fitted with individual 'Kluson Deluxe' stamped nickel tuners with white butterbean buttons, which are fitted with bolt bushings. Unfortunately I can't find anyone selling direct replacements - Tonepros used to do them but they stopped making tuners a few years ago and there's very little supply to be found now, even in the States.

I have narrowed my options down to either the current Kluson tuners - M33JP's -  which would need adapter bushings, but would give the correct look for the guitar, or Grover 136's which have metal butterbean buttons but do have bolt bushings.

I have heard a few people say that modern Klusons are not great quality. I would appreciate any comments from anyone with experience of the Klusons (or indeed the Grovers!). As much as I'd like to keep the guitar looking the same, tuning stability is more important. Or is there another option I have missed?

Many thanks

fretfinder

Fake58 do strip Klusons for Juniors/Specials, aged or unaged. I’ve no idea what model they are but I’ve had at least 3 sets in the last few years and they’ve been fine. 

TA22GT

These days I prefer Gotoh "Klusons" because they just seem better quality. Not sure if they do what you are looking for.

ICBM

There are no good direct-replacement options. All the ones which have a 'Kluson style' back combined with a bolt bushing are rubbish, no matter the button style or manufacturer. The construction is the same, a diecast base and rivetted-on cover which holds the gear shaft between them - not very accurately - and which are prone to coming loose (or off) if knocked.

So your choices are -

1. Use the same type of tuners but newer. This might give you a marginal improvement, but not much - they all suffer from the same fundamental weakness.

2. Use proper pressed-steel 'Kluson style' ones with a conversion bushing. This can leave marks from the old washers visible, but the tuning will be quite stable - especially if you use 'three-on-a-strip' ones which are more securely attached to the headstock, but will involve drilling some new screw holes.

3. Use a completely different type of bolt-bushing heads which fit the same screw holes, eg Grover Rotomatics. These are good heads but will change the look of the guitar a lot, are heavier - even if you replace the keys with small ones - and leave one empty screw hole in the back even though you don't have to drill any new ones.

If it was me I would do 2, with these https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Tuning_Machines/Solid_Peghead_Guitar_Tuning_Machines/Gotoh_Vintage-style_3-on-Plate_Tuners.html and conversion bushings, or 3 with Grover Rotomatics and replacement mini keys, depending on whether you want to keep the 'vintage' look as much as possible or prefer smoother tuning.

It's a bit of a faff either way...

Gan_Ainm

ICBM said:

There are no good direct-replacement options. All the ones which have a 'Kluson style' back combined with a bolt bushing are rubbish, no matter the button style or manufacturer. The construction is the same, a diecast base and rivetted-on cover which holds the gear shaft between them - not very accurately - and which are prone to coming loose (or off) if knocked.

So your choices are -

1. Use the same type of tuners but newer. This might give you a marginal improvement, but not much - they all suffer from the same fundamental weakness.

2. Use proper pressed-steel 'Kluson style' ones with a conversion bushing. This can leave marks from the old washers visible, but the tuning will be quite stable - especially if you use 'three-on-a-strip' ones which are more securely attached to the headstock, but will involve drilling some new screw holes.

3. Use a completely different type of bolt-bushing heads which fit the same screw holes, eg Grover Rotomatics. These are good heads but will change the look of the guitar a lot, are heavier - even if you replace the keys with small ones - and leave one empty screw hole in the back even though you don't have to drill any new ones.

If it was me I would do 2, with these https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Tuning_Machines/Solid_Peghead_Guitar_Tuning_Machines/Gotoh_Vintage-style_3-on-Plate_Tuners.html and conversion bushings, or 3 with Grover Rotomatics and replacement mini keys, depending on whether you want to keep the 'vintage' look as much as possible or prefer smoother tuning.

It's a bit of a faff either way...

Thanks for all the info. So are the Kluson brand tuners, such as these - https://www.wdmusic.co.uk/hardware-parts-c1/tuning-machines-c28/vintage-style-tuners-c32/kluson-3-aside-plastic-butterbean-buttons-tuners-p2725 or these - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kluson-M33JP-Vintage-DLine-Oval-Plastic-Button-Tuners-3x3-Nickel-8-5mm/372333141960?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 - the type you mention in point 2, with pressed steel construction? Not sure what the difference between those two are, apart from one is double line and the other single. I think I'd rather go with something that doesn't mean drilling new holes, even if it means fitting adapter bushings. I see WD also do adapter bushings with a fake hex head and separate washer, so they might cover the same area as the current washers so hopefully no marks show.

ICBM

Gan_Ainm said:

Thanks for all the info. So are the Kluson brand tuners, such as these - https://www.wdmusic.co.uk/hardware-parts-c1/tuning-machines-c28/vintage-style-tuners-c32/kluson-3-aside-plastic-butterbean-buttons-tuners-p2725 or these - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kluson-M33JP-Vintage-DLine-Oval-Plastic-Button-Tuners-3x3-Nickel-8-5mm/372333141960?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 - the type you mention in point 2, with pressed steel construction?

Yes, those are proper pressed-steel Klusons. Those with conversion bushings would be the easiest job, certainly.

I would remove the current hex bushings and washers first, and see if there's visible damage to the head face. If there isn't, the smaller type of conversion bushings will look the best. If there is you may have to decide if it's worth trying to polish off any marks - if they're just on the surface - or use the larger bushings.

Gan_Ainm

ICBM said:

Gan_Ainm said:

Thanks for all the info. So are the Kluson brand tuners, such as these - https://www.wdmusic.co.uk/hardware-parts-c1/tuning-machines-c28/vintage-style-tuners-c32/kluson-3-aside-plastic-butterbean-buttons-tuners-p2725 or these - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kluson-M33JP-Vintage-DLine-Oval-Plastic-Button-Tuners-3x3-Nickel-8-5mm/372333141960?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 - the type you mention in point 2, with pressed steel construction?

Yes, those are proper pressed-steel Klusons. Those with conversion bushings would be the easiest job, certainly.

I would remove the current hex bushings and washers first, and see if there's visible damage to the head face. If there isn't, the smaller type of conversion bushings will look the best. If there is you may have to decide if it's worth trying to polish off any marks - if they're just on the surface - or use the larger bushings.

Thanks that sounds like a good plan! Thanks to all for your posts too. 

ICBM

Gan_Ainm said:

Thanks that sounds like a good plan! Thanks to all for your posts too. 

No problem . This is something I'm quite familiar with because one of the most common machinehead-related requests I get is "can I replace my Fender US Standard/modern Gibson tuners with something more vintage-style?" And unfortunately the answer in both cases is "with a fair amount of difficulty or less than perfect results" . Both companies have chosen to use a type of head which is almost unique in terms of alternatives with the same footprint and mounting system.

At least the Fender ones don't fall apart with such monotonous regularity as the Gibson ones! Which is a good thing, as unlike with the Gibson ones, there is *no* alternative which fits without drilling holes.