Vintage guitars and condition

jimmyguitar

For all you fans of vintage guitars I just want to get to know your thoughts on the subject of condition. 

I am obsessed with vintage guitars (as many of you know by now). I like the way they feel, I like the history, I like the way they sound. But the ones I’ve bonded with most have been the heavily played ones, the ones with the finish hanging on for dear life and a few minor mods. 

I still look for clean original guitars, mainly as they’re less of a risk if I want to sell but I’ve learnt that inevitably they are the ones I move on.

Does anyone here avoid the ‘players’? Where does the appeal lie in a mint condition vintage guitar? 

I have played a few mint vintage guitars and they felt very much like their reissue counterparts... to the point where I wonder why more played examples aren’t actually prized more?!

barnstorm

The few people I've met with really clean old guitars have been principally interested in owning the piece that most accurately reflects the stuff that was coming out of factory X, Y or Z at a particular point in time. Which is to say: the individual guitar's history doesn't really matter to them as much as the model's, and its potential as a thing to be played is also of secondary importance. They wanted a clean example for the same reason that someone might want an unmarked antique vase.

BUT those people also had player-grade vintage guitars that they used all the time.

robgilmo

With any antique, the patina can either make it desirable or ugly.

JezWynd

There may be odd exceptions to rule but generally the good ones get played while the turkeys stay in their cases. 

jimmyguitar

robgilmo said:

With any antique, the patina can either make it desirable or ugly.

True. So do you think ‘pleasingly’ aged guitars will ever supersede the mint examples in value? I think if I was new to it all I’d expect to pay more for ‘cool’ played examples. I wonder if the next generation of guitar collector, being brought up on relics, will expect/desire the played-in look more than the mint, factory fresh look?

richardhomer

I think the gulf between ‘player grade’ and ‘collectors’ grade will widen. I’ve recently sold a players grade ‘64 335 for far less than clean, totally original examples sell for. The real high end dealers aren’t interested in ‘issues’ - they want to sell to the most affluent buyers - whether the buyer actually plays it is irrelevant.

meltedbuzzbox

JezWynd said:

There may be odd exceptions to rule but generally the good ones get played while the turkeys stay in their cases. 

thats my thoughts. 
Sure you might get the odd blinder thats been under a bed for 50 years but generally if its not been played its not that good. 

JayGee

I’m not in a position to buy anything at the moment but my view is, and always has been that if I was buying an old/vintage guitar I’d want it to look like it’s got a story behind it so battle scars, well executed visible repairs, and even sympathetic mods tend to enhance rather than detract from the appeal of an instrument for me.

The fact that things which add appeal for me can knock a sizeable chunk off the price is a just a bonus!

Misty

The more pristine a vintage guitar is, the more the pressure on the owner to keep it that way. A good players' grade guitar is more practical if you intend to actually use it. The dings will happen, but will add to the guitar's character rather than spoil that "museum" piece. My main gigging guitar is a "player grade" '64 Strat. I have friends with similar instruments, and we all seem to agree that whatever happens to the guitar doesn't really matter, within reason of course, as none of us intend selling them anyway.

designerseye88

I personally prefer players grade guitars. I'm always weary of really clean minty vintage guitars. Parts can easily be sourced from elsewhere and it's very hard to tell if a part is original or not and like has already been said many of these guitars were not revered back when they were made they were just new guitars meant to be played. So for me I'm really skeptical of mint examples. Even though players grade guitars will never fetch the top end value you can enjoy them more. gathering a few battle scars along the way adds to it's story. 

I bought a players grade LP special a while back which had seen better days but the forums very own @miserneil is currently restoring it back to life. I've managed to source almost all period correct parts and I plan to gig it and enjoy it. I feel it's even better knowing exactly what has been done to it rather than a minty guitar which may have had some changes along the way or been a complete dog, put back in the case and kept under the bed for years. 

ESBlonde

A mint guitar didn't get played for one of two reasons.
The owner bought it new and never took to playing or it was a better ornament than instrument. There are exceptions of course.

Typically the guitars that have changed parts, repairs and knocks/dings have been passed from one good player to another and had the snot played out of them - there is a reason they were in demand, because they were great guitars and setup to play great.

Bridgehouse

I wanted a pre-CBS bass. To be honest I don’t really know why - it was probably after having played one a long time ago when an old friend first started me off on bass. 

I tried a lot. Eventually the Precision I ended up with wasn’t chosen on looks. It was chosen on sound, playability and sort of on authenticity. I love it - it has it’s quirks but all in all it’s brilliant at doing what I wanted it to do - recreate that 60’s Precision tone. 

I have tried a lot of precisions since, and none really achieve that authentic tone. There’s always something not quite right. 

WezV

almost all the vintage guitars I see are players grade. Often with a few issues, or they wouldn't come to me in the first place.

I quite like trying to piece together the history of the guitar from the numerous changed parts and scars.  Much more interesting than one that has not changed since it left the factory

BBBlues

JezWynd said:

There may be odd exceptions to rule but generally the good ones get played while the turkeys stay in their cases. 

This is such a cliché. 

I'd suggest simply the majority of the heavily played guitars were just owned by people who played guitar lots - because they liked playing the guitar!

springhead

Agreed.  I think there are an equal number of mint and well played 'turkeys'.  Plenty of people years ago, as now, bought guitars and just took them out the case to play without ever gigging.  Doesn't mean they weren't fine instruments.  And some people bought them, never got round to learning, and they sat under the bed.  I've played a couple of those, 50's Gibsons, and they were excellent.  But very weird holding them, looking like they've just come out the shop, when they are actually around 60 years old.

  

WezV

Gets a bit chicken and egg really.

Maybe they liked playing guitar more because they had a good one, maybe it became a good one because it was well played.

What we do know is a well played one will usually have had more tweaks and maintenance work done along the way.  

you could say the neck will feel better as long as the frets are well maintained, or even replaced.  We can debate whether the resonance will have altered it, but I certainly believe the parts will have bedded together better as a minimum.  But its important to remember that can go  too far, parts can start to wear out, things can get damage which causes a permanent issue. 

Some now try and sell complete wrecks as "players grade".  There is a big difference between a players grade guitar that has been played and maintained a lot, and a "players grade" guitar that had irreversible hack jobs done to it.

judge the guitar you have in front of you

JezWynd

BBBlues said:

JezWynd said:

There may be odd exceptions to rule but generally the good ones get played while the turkeys stay in their cases. 

This is such a cliché. 

I'd suggest simply the majority of the heavily played guitars were just owned by people who played guitar lots - because they liked playing the guitar!

Nothing wrong with a good cliché. I subscribe to the view that guitars that get played a lot, get played a lot because they're good guitars. Players that like to play a lot won't put up with sub-standard instruments; and then there's the whole thing about playing improving an instrument, I think there's truth in that. That might be a cliché too, but I'll chance it. 

scalino65

Hi Jimmy
I think that the truly mint vintage guitars are naturally far rarer than the ones with damage/changes. Hence they will always be worth more.I think that tip top condition is the hold grail of collectors of most things.
The downside to something that is truly mint, at least for me, is that I would drive myself nuts that I might damage it. I had a 63 sg junior in white that was like new. Very shortly after I bought it, I put a tiny ding in it (or just as likely the shop which sold it to me had done a terrible cover up job possibly involving thr original chip and it fell off on the journey home) and hated the fact that it had survived 50 years as new and yet I'd had it a day and had damaged it. Hence, one problem is that a truly mint guitar wouldnt be played in my house (and certainly not outside it).
Another drawback to the mint suff is whether its legit or a fake. I tend to accept the premise that someone would more likely go to the trouble of faking something of a higher value. Again, I would drive myself nuts if I had spent 50k on a custom colour strat as, in the absence of impecable provenance, I could never be sure.
I also tend to think that something that actually looks its 40, 50 or 60 years old with its changes,etc is more likely to be legit, more likely to be used by me and will be cheaper. Plus, as its old it should look old.
To be honest, I would always always take a relic strat over a lovely new one as I couldnt bare the thought of the first ding.
Just my thoughts.
Best
Will

vale

i hate seeing old guitars that have never been played. they are kind of 'stillborn'.

they were going to be something. invested by their makers with infinite potential to inspire and bring pleasure to future players and their listeners (even comfort in stressful times), but because hoarder collectors and investors, who fixate on and fetishise commodity values above a guitar's value as an instrument to be played (intended purpose), they never attained life.

i know there are lots of (feeble & unconvincing) counter-arguments;
well it's their money to do with as they please...
that my view discriminates against people who can't play but want to engage with the scene...
well maybe someone will buy them to use eventually...

but basically once a guitar has become locked into long-term use (non-use) as an investment commodity (rather than use as an instrument), it is dead. to play it would reduce its value as a commodity, and the whole purpose of owning a commodity investment is to create wealth from it, not destroy it. it's nothing to do with music and everything to do with capitalism.

so anyway, the guitar effectively dies (stops being a guitar, in any meaningful sense) and takes on a perverse 'dumb' reincarnation as a commodity plank token in the market place.

that's why they annoy me. as beautiful as they can be, they were supposed to be played.

https://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/r/roserosemoeka/20171003/20171003211820.jpg

HarrySeven

The H7 maxim of Vintage Guitars:

*If it ain’t f*cked, I don’t want it.

peteri

I don’t buy the ‘if it ain’t been thrashed it’s no good’ - that’s ignoring luck or chance that a great guitar just gets park somewhere. 

Two of my best vintage guitars (recent 64 SG and 68 Tele) are near mint, three others (refinished and fretted 72 custom, played to death 60 junior with lots of dings and dents and a refinned, repaired 66 strat) are not - all are just wonderful to play. 

I like having the mix, its all to do with the price - I paid more and would expect more for the nicer condition ones - yes I do regret the odd scratches I add but that’s part of the story and I like Joes Bonamassa saying in reply to the guy telling him every scratch on a les Paul was worth $1000, does that mean 250 scratches and it’s free?

some people care too much