Helix with amp - Advice please.

jimkehoe

Now experimenting with running Helix into 65 Princeton. At home volumes, not gigging.

Impressed but a few questions:

• Is the best thing to remove any IR or cab and substitute preamp for the relevant amp on existing patches?
• Is there any easy way to transfer settings from full amp/cab patch to same with just pre-amp?
• Is there any easy way without swapping and disconnecting cables to compare straight through just the guitar signal with the Helix signal?
• Finally what advantages are there to using a Helix with an amp with an effects loop and how does it work?

Thanks in anticipation.

John_A

1 You Might get some Interesting sounds running an amp or preamp in to the front of a Princeton, but that’s not really what it was designed for.  Doing this you are stacking two preamps.

2. No afraid not 

3 can’t think of one other than 2 ab boxes, once you plug a guitar in to the helix you have a buffered signal

4 it means you can choose between running your real preamp and the helix preamps.  You can also put some effects before the preamp stage like drives, compressors etc, and run delays and reverbs and stuff after the preamp.  Definitely worth the trouble if you are using a real amp

By far the easiest option, and IMO the best is to use a FRFR speaker, then you don’t have all the hassle of 4 cables, and you get all the choices of amps and cabs without the colouration of the real cab

jimkehoe

John_A said:

1 You Might get some Interesting sounds running an amp or preamp in to the front of a Princeton, but that’s not really what it was designed for.  Doing this you are stacking two preamps.

2. No afraid not 

3 can’t think of one other than 2 ab boxes, once you plug a guitar in to the helix you have a buffered signal

4 it means you can choose between running your real preamp and the helix preamps.  You can also put some effects before the preamp stage like drives, compressors etc, and run delays and reverbs and stuff after the preamp.  Definitely worth the trouble if you are using a real amp

By far the easiest option, and IMO the best is to use a FRFR speaker, then you don’t have all the hassle of 4 cables, and you get all the choices of amps and cabs without the colouration of the real cab

Thanks John A - Makes sense and clears some major issues up.
I do have 2 Yamaha DXR10s that I can route through ( They also double as PA for acoustic gigs) but there is a part of me that still misses a clean valve amp sound even at low volume that adds body and warmth. I am more than happy with just a great clean valve sound that can then be added to whether overdrive or delay, trem, etc etc.
This is my scheming/thinking for maybe selling my Princeton and going for a Victory or similar. At the moment it is only for home use as the only outside stuff I do is acoustic.
Any other amp that would be suitable in your opinion/experience? (Appreciating your previous advice which I do get of just using FRFR) 

John_A

You could use something like a freyette power station and continue to use the Princeton, but IMO adding more gear, cables and complexity is the main reason come to the ‘is it really worth the bother’ conclusion.

I use my helix direct in to a DXR10, still have a few valve amps that I plug in from time to time, but after the simplicity and flexibility of the helix, the tiny difference ( not improvement) in tone just isn’t really enough to make me consider incorporating a real amp in to my helix rig.

not saying doing so is wrong, but for me just using the helix is so much easier, and with not a lot of tinkering sounds just as good

jimkehoe

John_A said:

You could use something like a freyette power station and continue to use the Princeton, but IMO adding more gear, cables and complexity is the main reason come to the ‘is it really worth the bother’ conclusion.

I use my helix direct in to a DXR10, still have a few valve amps that I plug in from time to time, but after the simplicity and flexibility of the helix, the tiny difference ( not improvement) in tone just isn’t really enough to make me consider incorporating a real amp in to my helix rig.

not saying doing so is wrong, but for me just using the helix is so much easier, and with not a lot of tinkering sounds just as good

What you say makes perfect sense and I am very impressed and happy with the Helix which is incredible considering Im a 55+ dinosaur valve snob.
Having said all that I would still like a valve amp at home for the occasional nostalgia factor and having sold all my pedals it seems sensible to utilise the FX from the Helix so an effects loop makes sense. Maybe a second hand Fender supersonic or a blues deluxe should do the job without too much expense and pass the Princeton on.

John_A

I’d say keep the Princeton, use it straight in, it’s one of the nicest sounding clean amps there is, use the helix fx only when the mood takes you and the helix in to a dxr as a great alternative 

jimkehoe

John_A said:

I’d say keep the Princeton, use it straight in, it’s one of the nicest sounding clean amps there is, use the helix fx only when the mood takes you and the helix in to a dxr as a great alternative 

Good advice. Much appreciated. 
Thanks John A.

bluenose

Sorry to hi-jack this, but i have a Helix floor on the way, and was initially going to use it with a Mesa valve amp in the fx loop , but just thinking about it, i also have a Fender Mustang III which has an fx loop and also an aux , could this amp be an option for live use ?

I closed the back of the Mustang a while back as bit of an an experiment to stop sound bleeding through to the drummer too much on tight gigs. To me it sounds better that way, but not sure if it would affect the amp if using with a Helix.
Thanks.

John_A

bluenose said:

Sorry to hi-jack this, but i have a Helix floor on the way, and was initially going to use it with a Mesa valve amp in the fx loop , but just thinking about it, i also have a Fender Mustang III which has an fx loop and also an aux , could this amp be an option for live use ?

I closed the back of the Mustang a while back as bit of an an experiment to stop sound bleeding through to the drummer too much on tight gigs. To me it sounds better that way, but not sure if it would affect the amp if using with a Helix.
Thanks.

Yes, it would work in to the FX return of the Mesa, or the Mustang, closing the back wont matter, it's just a matter of preference as to what sounds 'better', just try all the options and see what works for you

Axe_meister

Have you thought about using the 4 Cable Method.
Guitar-->Helix-->Send 1 to Princeton-->FX out -->Return 1 on Helix-->Helix out to FX Return on Princeton.
This way you can use the Princeton Pre-Amp as another FX that you can place anywhere in the chain.
I run a Helix with a Mesa 50/50 and 2X2X12 Marshal cabs.
For Amp sims with L6L power tubes, I just use the Pre-amp models (the Mesa is L6L), 
For other (EL84s, etc) I use the amp models without cabs.
I then have a second output going to my interface with a speaker sim for recording.

Sporky

jimkehoe said:

• Is there any easy way without swapping and disconnecting cables to compare straight through just the guitar signal with the Helix signal?

Yes - stick the Helix in a true bypass loop switch.

But bear in mind that small differences in level will sound like tonal differences.

I know some people disagree with me on this, but I don't think it's a terribly useful thing to test - get a sound you like with the Helix and don't worry about the direct sound potentially being a bit different. Unless you're very, very careful with your testing regime it's easy to make them sound more different than they are.

jimkehoe

Sporky said:

jimkehoe said:

• Is there any easy way without swapping and disconnecting cables to compare straight through just the guitar signal with the Helix signal?

Yes - stick the Helix in a true bypass loop switch.

But bear in mind that small differences in level will sound like tonal differences.

I know some people disagree with me on this, but I don't think it's a terribly useful thing to test - get a sound you like with the Helix and don't worry about the direct sound potentially being a bit different. Unless you're very, very careful with your testing regime it's easy to make them sound more different than they are.

Thanks Sporky.

jimkehoe

Axe_meister said:

Have you thought about using the 4 Cable Method.
Guitar-->Helix-->Send 1 to Princeton-->FX out -->Return 1 on Helix-->Helix out to FX Return on Princeton.
This way you can use the Princeton Pre-Amp as another FX that you can place anywhere in the chain.
I run a Helix with a Mesa 50/50 and 2X2X12 Marshal cabs.
For Amp sims with L6L power tubes, I just use the Pre-amp models (the Mesa is L6L), 
For other (EL84s, etc) I use the amp models without cabs.
I then have a second output going to my interface with a speaker sim for recording.

The Princeton does not have an effects loop. One of the reasons I am considering changing to a different amp with an effects loop. Just don't know if the advantages outweigh the cost and hassle.

Sporky

Ignoring sonic differences between the two amps (which is a bit silly I know), an amp with an FX loop does give more flexibility with the Helix, because you can use the amp's preamp as a block inside the Helix.

If you're just using the amp as a makey-loudy-box (ie clean or darned close to clean) then it makes less difference.

jimkehoe

Sporky said:

Ignoring sonic differences between the two amps (which is a bit silly I know), an amp with an FX loop does give more flexibility with the Helix, because you can use the amp's preamp as a block inside the Helix.

If you're just using the amp as a makey-loudy-box (ie clean or darned close to clean) then it makes less difference.

I always tend to go for a great clean and get overdrive via effects. So maybe best to stick with the Princeton then. I am intrigued/tempted by the Victory V40 Deluxe though which has the capability of generating decent break up of its own. Only based on You tube. Nothing hands on as yet.
I could go to Andertons with guitar and Helix but then if I did fall in love with the amp I'd bide my time for a used one to come up so not really fair on Andertons.

gibsongretschfan

You could always use the DXR10s alongside the Princeton in a W/D/W setup

jimkehoe

gibsongretschfan said:

You could always use the DXR10s alongside the Princeton in a W/D/W setup

I'm sure that would be great but that is getting very complex for my little brain!

John_A

Still say don't worry about integrating everything.  As it stands you have 3 great set-ups
Princeton
Princeton with Helix effects up front
Helix-> DXR10

Use each of them when appropriate and enjoy them for what they are

Totally agree with Sporky.  Who cared if the bypassed sound is a bit different, as long as it's not awful, which it wont be

jimkehoe

John_A said:

Still say don't worry about integrating everything.  As it stands you have 3 great set-ups
Princeton
Princeton with Helix effects up front
Helix-> DXR10

Use each of them when appropriate and enjoy them for what they are

Totally agree with Sporky.  Who cared if the bypassed sound is a bit different, as long as it's not awful, which it wont be

Thanks. Cruel mistress......... GAS

John_A

jimkehoe said:

Thanks. Cruel mistress......... GAS

What I'm doing with a large degree of success is fighting the GAS, and working with what I have, the satisfaction is much longer lived that the quick thrill of dropping a pile of cash on something I didn't really need.

Still have the odd lapse though

Wazmeister

I’d just run the Helix in front of the amp.... I found it very good this simple way.

Not all effects loop are created equally, and they can often affect noise levels and quality too much, imho