Westminster terror attack - August 2018

quarky

thecolourbox said:

And let's not forget. More people, significantly more, died in the last few years from being fat than from terrorism, certainly in this country if not in the world in general. So one lone nutter with some delusions of a greater cause should not cause people to fear a terrorist threat surely?

Whenever that comes up I find it a specious argument, because it is about what is preventable (or what we are willing to prevent). We need to care about it because it is preventable. Just like seat-belts or motorcycle helmets. We still care even though lung cancer kills more but is harder to prevent (although a lot of work has gone into it). And we put work into cancer even though heart disease kills more than that.

To dismiss preventable causes of death just because it isn't a huge killer is wrong.

robgilmo

Snap said:

robgilmo said:

Snap said:

robgilmo said:

This isn't a "terrorist" attack, terrorist attacks in case we have all forgotten are usually atrocities carried out by terrorist organizations fighting for their cause whatever that may be, this was some arsehold in a car who lost the plot, it seems nowadays if it's a person not White and English it's a terrorist attack, if for instance it's the EDL smashing up streets it isn't a terror attack, I'm not defending this guy or any other attack such as this one, but the phobia in this country towards Islam, Muslims and more often than not anyone not White and English breeds this kind of thing.

I wouldn't agree with a lot of what you've put there, particularly how you define terrorism.

I think the early assumption that it was an Islamic terrorist attack was fair. If we look back over the last few of years at reported incidents involving vehicles ploughing into people in public spaces, most of the perps have been non white people with an Islamic extremist nature. Its a reasonable assumption to make, whether the assumption is correct or not.

I don't hear of any Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist extremists carrying out these attacks, but I do hear reports of attacks by Islamic extremists. So, either they aren't happening, or only the Islamic ones are being reported.

Terrorism acc to Oxford Dictionary : The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I think its reasonable to insert "ideology" alongside "political" too.

I'd therefore say its a not unreasonable assumption to think that this was a terrorist attack, subject to any subsequent evidence emerging, no?

No, I dont agree, well I do with a lot of what you said, but, Islam and politics are two totally different things, so , a religious attack? Political perhaps but what political point are they trying to enforce? I also think we should not be recognising them as ''terrorists'' , because they are not, as I said before, when the EDL who have political aims wreck streets they are not arrested as ''terrorists'', why should this be any different? Thugs are thugs when ever country they are from. You say ideology should be inserted along side political? So political ideology? Based on extremist religious views? That's a religious ideology, not a political one.

I think you misconstrued my argument on terrorism, so to be clear, ideology whatever the type, not exclusively political ideology, so yes of course, religious ideology. That was my point really (in respect of the Oxf definition) - it doesn't have to be just a political ideology, certainly not in the current climate of regular Islamic terror attacks.

I'd put anyone using violence and fear to convey an ideology in the terrorist bucket: I don't see how you couldn't tbh.

I don't think the assumption that its terrorism is driven by the perps colour either. Its the means - the driving of a van into an area full of pedestrians. By comparison, when that fella (white) drove into crowds in London, to kill muslims, that was quickly classed as a terror attack.

Someone drives a van into pedestrians, in a busy city, outside a notable landmark. In all likelihood, based on past events, its highly likely its an Islamic terrorist. History, and very recent history, would indicate that. Similarly if a suicide Hi bomber acts somewhere, there is a very high chance, again based on recent history, that its going to be an Islamic terrorist. So, not surprisingly the initial thought is this.

Sad state of affairs, but this is the current way of the world.

In the 70s and 80s, even 90s, when a bomb went off in a British city, the first thought was - IRA terror attack. Same 

robgilmo

Not really, using the term Islamic to describe these attacks is wrong, as would be using the word Catholic instead of IRA.

proggy

Perhaps these Muslims aren't terrorists at all, perhaps it's just a coincidence that they're all just terrible drivers.

breakstuff

proggy said:

Perhaps these Muslims aren't terrorists at all, perhaps it's just a coincidence that they're all just terrible drivers.

Seems an opportune moment to ask if everyone would be kind enough to sign my petition to get my wife released from Guantanamo Bay?

Cheers.

robgilmo

If a white terrorist is convicted does their religious beliefs become a descriptive term used to describe them? Don't blame this on religion, that's just a cop out from understanding the truth.

PolarityMan

Maybe it was a lack of dedicated parking spaces

usedtobe

More nutter than actual terrorist, I reckon, but, yer know...

quarky

robgilmo said:

If a white terrorist is convicted does their religious beliefs become a descriptive term used to describe them? Don't blame this on religion, that's just a cop out from understanding the truth.

Yes, when their religious belief drives them to it.

I get what you mean. You can't tar all Islam with the same brush, I agree, but it is *more* wrong to say it has nothing to do with Islam. Responsibility and religion don't really go together, but those religions need to take responsibility (which they can't obviously do without the whole sham collapsing) for their "texts" being used (not twisted) in ways that have unintended consequences.

The bible (the OT, which all the Mosaic religions are based on) says, you should kill disobedient children, that sins are revisited on great-grandchildren, that gay people should be killed, etc. and no one can argue with that. So no wonder there is so much crap done in it's name.

What a shame such a shit bunch of religions became popular rather than the Greek, Roman, Norse, etc.

skunkwerx

Ugh gotta go down there again Friday... 

Makes me hypervigilant..

Bridgehouse

skunkwerx said:

Ugh gotta go down there again Friday... 

Makes me hypervigilant..

Was near Westminster yesterday mate. 

skunkwerx

Bridgehouse said:

skunkwerx said:

Ugh gotta go down there again Friday... 

Makes me hypervigilant..

Was near Westminster yesterday mate. 

Glad yer wasnt involved. 

My sister works not so far from there, generally I just avoid London, purely because I hate the tubes unless its midday lol

thecolourbox

quarky said:

What a shame such a shit bunch of religions became popular rather than the Greek, Roman, Norse, etc.

Yeah at least they killed and raped and invaded for reasons other than religion

quarky

thecolourbox said:

Yeah at least they killed and raped and invaded for reasons other than religion

But we managed to get past those as we became more civilized. Religious belief does mature over time, but because the orignal texts can never be questioned for some, those original stupid ideas still persist.

Snap

robgilmo said:

If a white terrorist is convicted does their religious beliefs become a descriptive term used to describe them? Don't blame this on religion, that's just a cop out from understanding the truth.

It is Islamic extremism, based on a warped interpretation of their religion. Its very different to the Catholic/IRA axis, as I'm sure you know. Islamic extremism revolves around destroying the infidel way of life and establishing an Islamic order.

With the Irish troubles, the religious divides were a flag for the dividing factions of English and Irish, as the national religions of the two states were different. NOthing in the religious codes of Catholicism and Protestants advocated, or could be interpreted to advocate the murder of people. However, Islam can be interpreted so, and the fundamental extremists do, hence the agenda.

Extremism is the key word, so no of course I don't think for a moment it applies to all muslims. The extremism is inextricably linked with Islam though. In the same way that the Crusades in the middle ages were inextricably linked with Christianity.

BigLicks67

robgilmo said:

If a white terrorist is convicted does their religious beliefs become a descriptive term used to describe them? Don't blame this on religion, that's just a cop out from understanding the truth.

The question is what is the truth? As @quarky stated they are defined by their religion. Have a read of the The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright which traces the beginnings of movements like Al Qaeda back to 'inspirational figures' such as Sayib Qutb in the 1940's.

It's fair to say that there are 2.5 billion muslims on the planet and a very small minority are taking part in these atrocities, but it's  stupid to ignore a commonality of purpose tied to religious belief.

The dichotomy at the heart of the Manchester bombing was that a muslim exploded the bomb and the survivors were saved by a top muslim surgeon at a Manchester hospital. It's not anti muslim to state an obvious truth that organisations such as ISIS and Al Qaeda had primary motivations stemming from religious belief.

Fretwired

Looks like it's not a terror attack - the guy in question seems to be suffering from severe depression. Seems his sister phones him everyday from the Sudan putting pressure on him for money for their mother's healthcare.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Looks like it's not a terror attack - the guy in question seems to be suffering from severe depression. Seems his sister phones him everyday from the Sudan putting pressure on him for money for their mother's healthcare.

Failed suicide-by-cop, possibly.

quarky

Depression and family pressure crosses all boundaries unfortunately.