New headphones are fabulous, what DAC setup to get now?

olafgarten

Stuckfast said:

I am a bit sceptical about bus powered USB DACs. There simply isn't enough power available over USB to operate a serious headphone amp.

That might be true if you ignore the existence of Class D amps and efficient power supplies, you can easily get around 2 watts of output over USB 2 and with USB 3 you can technically get a 200w input power. 

Megii

spark240 said:

Since. I Won those Focal Pro clear cans recently .Im also looking out for a DAC job.

Hope you can find the right DAC gizmo @spark240.

Having thought a bit, what I'm after initially is more of a desktop DAC, with line out jacks, and inputs for USB, optical and coaxial digital, which will be always wired into my hi-fi, and won't be required to do the portable dac thing. Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 100 is a contender (but I wish they'd do a sale price, the current £169 seems a tad steep to me). But there are also interesting options from China being sold on ebay/amazon/aliexpress and the like, such as:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TOPPING-D30-DSD-Audio-Decoder-USB-Coaxial-Optical-Fiber-XMOS-CS4398-24Bit-192KHz/32732737004.html?src=google&albslr=200349805&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&albcp=658432961&albag=33762888219&slnk=&trgt=68416666751&plac=&crea=en32732737004&netw=g&device=c&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlrrS176P3QIV1rjACh0GqQBlEAQYBCABEgLE4_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DAC-X6-Headphone-Amplifier-DAC-Decoder-HiFi-USB-24Bit-192Khz-Fiber-Coaxial/263522781172?hash=item3d5b2e87f4:g:NIkAAOSwdqRalkzN

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06X92M8MS/ref=asc_df_B06X92M8MS55171386/?tag=googshopuk-21&creative=22146&creativeASIN=B06X92M8MS&linkCode=df0&hvadid=205215094696&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15240979636758525106&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9044880&hvtargid=pla-431243607253

...just to highlight three examples that seem well reviewed online/on Youtube. Quite tempted - has anyone tried any of these brands i.e. Topping/FX Audio/SMSL?

Stuckfast

Sporky said:

Given that a device can request 2.5W over USB 2, and assuming a Class D amp section, that's a watt into each ear. Which is potentially deafening, depending on the headphones. 

Well... in the sense that these devices can drive low-impedance, highly efficient headphones reasonably well, then yes they do the job OK, but then so do the headphone amps built into many laptops. USB DACs are probably fine with the right headphones and as long as your laptop can actually deliver the full 2.5W or whatever. But as to whether that makes them good headphone amps in a universal sense I'm not so sure.

I have certainly tried USB-powered devices that were either noticeably bass light with low-impedance phones or uselessly quiet with 250Ω phones, but I don't know whether those were Class D or not. Or maybe they were just very poorly designed, who knows.

Megii

Out of interest, which usb dacs did you try @Stuckfast?

Sporky

I was responding to the suggestion that there isn't enough power via USB.

It's certainly possible to make a USB-powered DAC that sounds rubbish, but that's not down to a lack of power. A quick Google suggests that most earphones and headphones are in the 80-125 dBSPL/mW range, ie 1 milliwatt results in 80-125dB SPL.

80 dB SPL might not be loud enough for some people, but we're putting up to a thousand times that much power in. Even if the DAC itself takes up 1.5W you've still got about 400mW per side to drive the 'phones - ie you can still hit permanent hearing damage levels.

Megii

duotone said:

Not something I know much about tbh, but this might be worth a look into further;

https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/hi-fi/best-dacs

Did have a look at this, cheers - useful for the info on portable usb dacs, but for the "desktop" models, all out of my price range.

Stuckfast

The one that really sticks in my mind was the old Digidesign M Box Micro, but to be fair that was a long time ago.

The first generation RME Babyface struggled to deliver decent levels if I remember right.

In general if you look at the specs of USB bus powered interfaces you'll often see that the headphone amps do not deliver as much power as mains-powered ones.

I should point out that this is much more of an issue in music production where you are frequently working with unmastered signals that have a lot of headroom and are thus relatively quiet. For music listening it's not so much of a problem unless you are using headphone correction software such as Sonarworks which introduces a substantial level drop.

Tenebrous

Megii said:

beed84 said:

As previously mentioned, I’ve got a sound blaster E5 which is superb. It also sounds fantastic on Bluetooth.

If you’re looking for something portable and to accommodate your laptop listening needs, @Tenebrous is selling a FiiO E12 which I would certainly consider. You can find it here:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/136732/fs-ft-sennheiser-momentum-2-0-over-ear-fiio-e12-sony-dap-snes-mini-price-drops-on-everything#latest

Cheers @beed84 ;! The sound blaster looks pretty cool I must say - afraid it doesn't quite have the combination of inputs/outputs I'd want for incorporating into my home hi-fi. Maybe more of a contender in the portable unit to use with the laptop or whatever though, and the price is certainly good.

That FiiO E12 looks like a nice thing too, and tempting for the money, although it doesn't have the DAC. Reviews saying it improves the sound a lot just going from a typical headphone output though...

Aye it lacks a DAC, which is honestly a pretty huge part of the puzzle. If you're after a PC/laptop device, I'd suggest looking for a DAC/Amp combo if your budget allows - The E12 is great to tie to a phone or something, though!

If the E12 interests you, though, I'll happily send you it for a test so long as you cover the postage costs. If you like it, we can work out a deal, & if not, just send it back.

darthed1981 said:

Listening to my new Phillips X2s now, great cans!

I recommended these recently in another thread (mine are on my head right now). I prefer them to my more expensive open backed Sennheisers, honestly... Just so damn comfortable, and the slightly warmer than neutral sound is so pleasing to the ears.

Freebird

I'm using ATH-M50 for tracking, and HD600 for mixing. I use both for listening to music through my SPL Crimson audio interface. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that I also use Sonarworks and Goodhertz Can Opener plugins, for a flatter response and crosstalk when required.

Rocker

It is important to point out that a DAC is not a headphone amplifier unless it is designed to be one. It provides an analogue signal that can be connected to the input of an amplifier or a headphone amplifier etc.

I never tried this myself so cannot offer an opinion one way or the other, but there is the view in some hi-fi circles that sound quality is improved by using an external PSU to power USB devices. This requires the breaking of the power line from the computer in the USB cable, and connecting up the external PSU to power the device. Check out www.tnt-audio.com for DIY examples/advice on how to do this simple modification.

darthed1981

Tenebrous said:

I recommended these recently in another thread (mine are on my head right now). I prefer them to my more expensive open backed Sennheisers, honestly... Just so damn comfortable, and the slightly warmer than neutral sound is so pleasing to the ears.

They are incredibly comfortable, its like wearing a nice warm crumble

Megii

Stuckfast said:

The one that really sticks in my mind was the old Digidesign M Box Micro, but to be fair that was a long time ago.

The first generation RME Babyface struggled to deliver decent levels if I remember right.

In general if you look at the specs of USB bus powered interfaces you'll often see that the headphone amps do not deliver as much power as mains-powered ones.

I should point out that this is much more of an issue in music production where you are frequently working with unmastered signals that have a lot of headroom and are thus relatively quiet. For music listening it's not so much of a problem unless you are using headphone correction software such as Sonarworks which introduces a substantial level drop.

Appreciated cheers @Stuckfast - I was probably looking at the Cambridge Audio usb dac, or maybe one of those Dragonfly things - but somehow I'd like it to have a volume control, which the Dragonfly models don't appear to have.

Megii

Tenebrous said:

Megii said:

beed84 said:

As previously mentioned, I’ve got a sound blaster E5 which is superb. It also sounds fantastic on Bluetooth.

If you’re looking for something portable and to accommodate your laptop listening needs, @Tenebrous is selling a FiiO E12 which I would certainly consider. You can find it here:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/136732/fs-ft-sennheiser-momentum-2-0-over-ear-fiio-e12-sony-dap-snes-mini-price-drops-on-everything#latest

Cheers @beed84 ;! The sound blaster looks pretty cool I must say - afraid it doesn't quite have the combination of inputs/outputs I'd want for incorporating into my home hi-fi. Maybe more of a contender in the portable unit to use with the laptop or whatever though, and the price is certainly good.

That FiiO E12 looks like a nice thing too, and tempting for the money, although it doesn't have the DAC. Reviews saying it improves the sound a lot just going from a typical headphone output though...

Aye it lacks a DAC, which is honestly a pretty huge part of the puzzle. If you're after a PC/laptop device, I'd suggest looking for a DAC/Amp combo if your budget allows - The E12 is great to tie to a phone or something, though!

If the E12 interests you, though, I'll happily send you it for a test so long as you cover the postage costs. If you like it, we can work out a deal, & if not, just send it back.

darthed1981 said:

Listening to my new Phillips X2s now, great cans!

I recommended these recently in another thread (mine are on my head right now). I prefer them to my more expensive open backed Sennheisers, honestly... Just so damn comfortable, and the slightly warmer than neutral sound is so pleasing to the ears.

Thanks @Tenebrous - I'll pass for now, very decent and trusting offer though that is. I guess at some stage (when I've got a portable dac) I may feel it would be beneficial, in which case, if it's still up for sale then we might be in business. Cheers!

Megii

Rocker said:

It is important to point out that a DAC is not a headphone amplifier unless it is designed to be one. It provides an analogue signal that can be connected to the input of an amplifier or a headphone amplifier etc.

I never tried this myself so cannot offer an opinion one way or the other, but there is the view in some hi-fi circles that sound quality is improved by using an external PSU to power USB devices. This requires the breaking of the power line from the computer in the USB cable, and connecting up the external PSU to power the device. Check out www.tnt-audio.com for DIY examples/advice on how to do this simple modification.

I'll have a look, thanks

Megii

Freebird said:

I'm using ATH-M50 for tracking, and HD600 for mixing. I use both for listening to music through my SPL Crimson audio interface. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that I also use Sonarworks and Goodhertz Can Opener plugins, for a flatter response and crosstalk when required.

Sounds like very nice kit I must say, don't think I'll be buying said audio interface to be honest - interesting though, cheers

Megii

darthed1981 said:

Tenebrous said:

I recommended these recently in another thread (mine are on my head right now). I prefer them to my more expensive open backed Sennheisers, honestly... Just so damn comfortable, and the slightly warmer than neutral sound is so pleasing to the ears.

They are incredibly comfortable, its like wearing a nice warm crumble

who wouldn't want that? Sound-wise, I find they do have a warm, smooth aspect, but then there's a detail resolution and realism that keeps giving me those "wow" moments. And when there's a slam, they slam - they dynamics are great.

Megii

Was driving myself nuts looking at various bits of info re dacs on the web/Youtube - if I thought headphones was tricky, then this is worse. Kind of whittled it down to 3 contenders for use with the hi-fi which were - Topping D30, Cambridge Audio dacmagic 100, FX Audio DAC-X6. In the end I have bought an "as new" boxed CA dacmagic 100 on ebay for just over £100 posted.

The FX Audio is super cheap, and nicely made, but I didn't fancy ordering from China (or outside the UK) and I read things that lead me to believe the sound would not be quite up to either of the other options, plus I don't need the headphone jack for use with the hi-fi. Another thing, if I have it correct, is it doesn't do ASIO, only WASAPI - which apparently isn't as good.

The Topping D30 looks pretty great for the money - can find them for under £90. But again the ordering from China. Possibly a better sound than the Cambridge Audio, but I also read accounts from some people who prefer the CA. Just possibly some issues with the windows driver for the Topping also (did read the odd report of issues). Also, I like the leds showing sample rate on the CA - I think that will be re-assuring.

And having kept the spend for the desktop DAC down to £100, I just went and bought an as-new Cambridge Audio dacmagic XS (version 2) for £57 posted, so I'll have the portable headphones thing sorted also . Again ebay (seller had several for sale, all box-opened for photograph purposes, but unused) - hope this one works out also.

Fingers crossed, wish me luck I guess...

Freebird

Megii said:

Freebird said:

I'm using ATH-M50 for tracking, and HD600 for mixing. I use both for listening to music through my SPL Crimson audio interface. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that I also use Sonarworks and Goodhertz Can Opener plugins, for a flatter response and crosstalk when required.

Sounds like very nice kit I must say, don't think I'll be buying said audio interface to be honest - interesting though, cheers

I record vocals, guitars, synths and connect my Kemper digitally, so I need the preamps, Hi-Z, midi, line-in and SPDIF connections. The headphone amp is a bonus, but I must say the Can Opener plugin is useful for experiencing a speaker crosstalk effect through the headphones.

Good luck with your setup, you've probabally already noticed that the music equipment game is a never-ending quest for perfection 

darthed1981

Interesting how this is moving onto interfaces, I'm thinking of getting a mic and a focusrite scarlet solo for a bit of recording

Freebird

darthed1981 said:

Interesting how this is moving onto interfaces, I'm thinking of getting a mic and a focusrite scarlet solo for a bit of recording

It's a natural progression if you own any musical instruments. In fact, it was the recording aspect which rekindled my interest in guitars and synths, etc.. Headphone amps and DAC's are an add-on feature for audio interfaces, but some of them are pretty decent.