Wiring on a 1999 Historic Custom LP

SunDevil

Just opened one of these up to find Gibson branded 500k pots, regular poly caps (rather than overly large ones pretending to be POI caps for reasons I'll leave alone here) and a 'modern' wiring setup

It all looks pretty old in there, with some whitening of the metal of the pot casings, but the pube in the pot cavity and loose screws suggest I'm not the first person to have opened it up

So the question is whether, pube aside,  it would it have come out of the factory like this in that era?

shugz

Sounds factory to me. The CS guitars didn't really have any different or upscale electronics different from the peasant versions. They changed to horrible fake bumblebee caps later but those were nothing like the old ones. Mylar 1 cents in a fancy frock.

Think you could find a difference in changing the current setup. I would say that though....

Cheers
Hugh

SunDevil

Cheers Hugh - figure some new pots and a couple of over-priced (..by which I mean £1.50 rather than £75) are in order then

shugz

Caps are very subjective so I'm staying well out of that. I like paper in oil but not at a million pounds a cap. There's some good stockists I think even on this forum that could help and still some Russian caps out there if you can find them. 

Pots, anything CTS premium will probably do it albeit I do like the vintage taper ones. RS superpots were great too when prices were not so mental but id wager even a basic CTS will be a good upgrade there. Probably £40 tops all if buying yourself from a good reputable seller. Avoid some of the kits on eBay as the soldering looks like my 3 yr old had a go at it.

Good luck
H

ICBM

With all respect to Hugh, I wouldn’t change anything. There’s nothing wrong with any of the components, and there will be no tone change - the pots are already 500K Log and caps don’t affect the tone (other than by their value).

If you prefer 50s wiring, simply move the tone caps to the middle terminals on the volume pots.

SunDevil

Thanks ICBM

shugz

Those old gibson brand pots aren't great. I'm fine if you want to argue caps but those pots aren't very good...sorry.

H

SunDevil

I’m going to swap ‘em if for no other reason that they’re really low torque and I suspect that sneezing at the wrong time will give me ‘woman tone’ - like it or not

..but I will keep the original loom so I can reinstall at a later date

I can hear cap differences in amps but I’m afraid my ears aren’t good enough to hear it in a guitar circuit - tend to use Mallory’s because the flexible legs are easy to work with and because I have them for amps anyhoo!

ICBM

SunDevil said:

I can hear cap differences in amps but I’m afraid my ears aren’t good enough to hear it in a guitar circuit

No-one’s are, because there isn’t any.

There’s a difference in amps because the caps are subjected to tens or hundreds of volts, which introduces self-distortion and hence changes the harmonic content. Voltages in a guitar are around 1V maximum, which has no effect on a cap rated for at least 50V and usually much higher.

shugz

Always liked the pio caps more from a vintage accurate and decent build quality reason. One less thing to worry come gig time. Nothing 'wrong' in fitting modern caps. No one will know anyway.....  

The 50s wiring makes a difference too but again subjective, not everyone likes it. Pot value can also have a difference too and can be worth experimenting with. 

@SunDevil @sixstringsupplies could be worth a chat if you're buying bits n bobs. I think you'll need the long shaft 500ks on a Custom. 

Cheers
Hugh

ICBM

shugz said:

Always liked the pio caps more from a vintage accurate and decent build quality reason. One less thing to worry come gig time. Nothing 'wrong' in fitting modern caps. No one will know anyway.....

Yes, there are valid reasons for using certain cap types - eg some people like Orange Drops for the long thick leads, which make wiring easy - just not tone . For looks is fine too .

shugz said:

The 50s wiring makes a difference too but again subjective, not everyone likes it.

I don’t. It makes the controls too interactive, especially in the middle position which is what I use most - because the tone controls are then in parallel, since they’re on the switch side of the volume pots.

shugz said:

Pot value can also have a difference too and can be worth experimenting with.

I did some testing with switched resistors to simulate different values and I was surprised how little difference it made - the minimum audible difference was about 25% down and 33% up from the spec value. (Hence why the standard tolerance on pots is 20%, I think.)

The quality of the taper does make a big difference to how well the pot works though, if you’re someone who uses them a lot.

SunDevil

Bumping this to ask how best to remove the plastic knobs when they don’t wanna budge?

I intended to just move the cap to the mid-lug but needed to turn the pots towards each other a tad on the bass side, to make the cap stretch and just couldn’t budge the plastic knobs, even with one of those plastic knob pullers - started seeing lacquer cracks I’d not noticed before and thought better of it

..I ended up lifting one end of the cap and crudely running a sprague cross - electrically sound but not the neatest job

..sounds awesome now, so job done, but I’d like to know how to get those knobs off for future reference?

sixstringsupplies

cheers Hugh @shugz ; glad you're enjoying the Ragh Guitar Jr so much. Looks a beaut!

@SunDevil If it were me I would just tweak the capacitor over to 50s wiring as @ICBM ; suggests to offer something different to the current setup.  It's a Gibson after all so the components will be of decent quality.

If you feel after that that you might want a different taper for example, then there are plenty of us out there who can do you a kit

SunDevil

Cheers @sixstringsupplies - exactly what I've done tonight

I'd still be interested in any tips from anyone as to how to remove pot knobs that won't budge with brute force (and ignorance!) alone?

rico

Get a rag and put it around the shaft under the knob. Grab all the corners, twist together and pull - should pop off!

Bridgehouse

Keep the pube in. Cos, um, Toanz innit?

thermionic

A pube? Not Brazilian rosewood then.

ICBM

If the knobs really won’t budge even with a fair amount of force applied, leave them unless you *have* to remove them - someone may have glued them on, and you’ll have to do damage to get them off. (Speaking from experience of my first Les Paul...)

If you’ve tried working them off by levering them up at one side (using the edge of the nut to lever against, not the top of the guitar) and rotating them until you can get some movement, they’re probably not coming off.

If the cap wires won’t reach, extend them with a small piece of solid wire, with some heat shrink over the top if they’re likely to touch the other terminal.

SunDevil

Thanks @ICBM - it's a bit heath robinson, but it's electrically and mechanically sound, so I plan to leave as is now and enjoy playing it.

Any chance I pulled the pots hard enough to have set off the cracking in the lacquer close to (but not connected to) the pot holes? ..I'm assuming not (I didn't pull 'that' hard!) and that it was there before - just easier to spot in bright light under a head torch

ICBM

Possible, if you just pulled rather than levered against the nut. A Les Paul has quite a stiff cavity top with it being maple, but it will still bend a bit. An SG is quite fragile and you can crack the wood if you pull too hard...

SunDevil

All mahogany this one - lesson learned and at least it has its share of ‘relicing’ already, so as long as it’s stable then all good.