Have I bought the incorrect bridge for my Crimson Telecaster kit build?

deano

Hi,

I am building a Crimson Telecaster kit guitar. I have measured the scale length and drawn a line across the body at 25.5” to give me a reference point for positioning the bridge.

The bridge is a Gotoh GTC201, which is 101.5 mm long, and I set the saddles equally at the mid-point of their travel on the intonation screws. One of these...

When I position the bridge a small piece of the body is showing through the pickup hole, on the bass side, nearest to the fingerboard. It is only a couple of mm but that will stop the pickup fitting. When I position the bridge so that no body is showing, the saddles are a good few mm behind the line I drew to indicate the scale length. When I turn the intonation screws to move the forward edge of the saddles towards the scale length line, the saddle almost comes off the intonation screw.

Clearly I have done something wrong.

Have I measured the scale length line in the wrong place do you think, or – more likely – I have probably ordered the wrong bridge. It is described as a modern conversion bridge, but as I have never owned a tele before I just assumed it would fit on a guitar where I was drilling the holes!

If I have ordered a bridge that is the wrong size, would a smaller one, measuring 85.2mm such as the Gotoh BS-TC1S, fit properly so the saddles sit comfortable over the scale length line, allowing a reasonable travel on the intonation adjustment screws, and with the pickup hole sitting over the route without any body showing?

I hope that all makes sense.

To be honest, being a long-time strat player I liked the idea of the 6 separate saddles for intonation adjustment, so went for the GTC201 without realising there were even different bridge sizes. It only came apparent when I started looking around when I couldn’t get it to fit without either a bit of body showing, or the saddles dropping off the intonation screws to try to get them to sit over the scale length line I had drawn on the body.

WezV

First. Make sure you are marking scale length correctly as it catches some out.  It should be 25.5” from the fretboard side of the nut.   The centre of the 12th fret should be exactly 12.75” from this same point.  Double check.

second.  Does the high E reach the 25.5” line when fully extended and positioned over the pickup hole?  In theory, as long as the high e reaches the scale length line you will be fine... you only need to adjust backwards from this.  In practice setting it  7/8 of the way forward when positioning the bridge gives a safety net for incorrect positioning.Setting it to the mid position wastes a lot of adjustment 

third.  Can you easily extend the bridge pickup cavity?  I would rather have an extended pickup cavity that’s hidden and use the bridge of choice.

forth.  Replacing the intonation screws with longer ones will solve a lot of issues

gavin_axecaster

deano said:

If I have ordered a bridge that is the wrong size, would a smaller one, measuring 85.2mm such as the Gotoh BS-TC1S, fit properly so the saddles sit comfortable over the scale length line, allowing a reasonable travel on the intonation adjustment screws, and with the pickup hole sitting over the route without any body showing?

No, the length of the bridge doesn't matter in this case. Both the GTC and BS bridge have the mount, string through and pickup holes located in the same place. The reason the GTC is longer is because the individual saddles need the extra length to avoid the intonation screws fouling the strings. On a three saddle bridge this isn't an issue.

deano

Cheers everyone. Much to ponder. But at least I have options other than buying another bridge!

Funkfingers

deano said:
Clearly, I have done something wrong.

Yes. You have assumed that the Crimson Guitars kit is infallible. 

Also, you have mentioned marking up for the scale length but omitted to mention marking up for the centre line. 

ICBM

One of these?

https://crimsonguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Kit-Guitar-Tele-Type-16.jpg

If so the problem is that the neck is significantly too far out of the body - the end of the body should be under the 16th fret. To fix that, you will need to rout the neck pocket longer. That will move the intonation point further back and allow the bridge to fit properly.

deano

ICBM said:

One of these?

https://crimsonguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Kit-Guitar-Tele-Type-16.jpg

If so the problem is that the neck is significantly too far out of the body - the end of the body should be under the 16th fret. To fix that, you will need to rout the neck pocket longer. That will move the intonation point further back and allow the bridge to fit properly.

But won't that push the pick guard further back with the result that it will push the bridge further back?

I probably am guilty in assuming the kit is correct, because I don't have experience of telecasters at all. Mea Culpa.

Anyway, just for closure I have decided to cut my losses and ordered a Gotoh BS-TC1S Low Profile Telecaster Vintage Bridge from the excellent folks at North West Guitars. This is 85 mm long so should fit nicely - I hope!

Anyway, I am now the proud owner of a spare modern bridge which I will use on a later build, and the - hopefully - right bridge will be speeding its way to me and I can carry on bodging the build.

Thank you all again.

ICBM

deano said:

But won't that push the pick guard further back with the result that it will push the bridge further back?

You may have to deepen the cut-out in the guard too, although if its a proper Tele guard then you shouldn't because they are designed for a body with the right neck pocket length.

This is what it's meant to look like - you should be able to see that the end of the body is much closer to, if not directly under, the 16th fret - not almost halfway between the 16th and 17th as it is on the Crimson.

https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/ZoomJpg/10001/0140063701_gtr_cntbdyright_001_nr.jpg

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

the end of the body should be under the 16th fret. 

On this Fender AVRI, the 16th fret lies approximately 2mm or 5/64ths" beyond the flat surface of edge of the body.

https://i.imgur.com/QT1IuFq.jpg?1



On the subject of routing, the combination of a fingerboard extension and a pickguard mounted neck/Rhythm pickup may oblige you to extend the neck pickup cavity towards the bridge. The only other way to achieve the clearance is to unfasten the neck every time.

deano

I made a paper template of a bridge with an 85 mm footprint, and that seemed to fit in a way that will allow the saddles to sit over what I refer to as the scale length line, and gives me a nice looking gap that forms between the bridge and the pick guard, so I am hoping that I can build a reasonable guitar now.

I will measure where the body passes beneath the 16th fret when I get hop from work later.

I appreciate that I may not have bought a good kit. I have perhaps fallen for the hype, believing that the Crimson kit is better than those that cost £100 including all of the hardware and pickups and so on.

Where would you advise that I buy bodies and necks from for my next build. Cutting from unfinished pieces of rough stock isn't possible for me I'm afraid as I don't have the room to put machine tools, nor do I have the money.

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

On this Fender AVRI, the 16th fret lies approximately 2mm or 5/64ths" beyond the flat surface of edge of the body.

Exactly - I would say that the end of the body is roughly level with the bridge side of the fret. On the Crimson, it looks like it's at least 4-5mm further towards the 17th fret, which will explain the bridge and pickup rout misalignment.

Funkfingers said:

On the subject of routing, the combination of a fingerboard extension and a pickguard mounted neck/Rhythm pickup may oblige you to extend the neck pickup cavity towards the bridge. The only other way to achieve the clearance is to unfasten the neck every time.

You could also shorten the extended fingerboard since it serves no purpose - and round it properly while you're at it, it's an ugly squared-off one like a Suhr...

Funkfingers

ICBM said:
On the Crimson, it looks like it's at least 4-5mm further towards the 17th fret, which will explain the bridge and pickup rout misalignment.

This visual comparison assumes that the Fender and Crimson body neck pockets are of identical dimensions.

If, for whatever reason, Crimson has altered the traditional T body outline in the neck pocket area, the relative positions of the body edge and the frets will not correspond to vintage Fender expectations.

@deano Please will you measure the distance between the adjacent edges of neck pickup and neck pocket routs on the Crimson kit body? (Expect something in the region of 12mm or 15/32nds".)

deano

Funkfingers said:

ICBM said:
On the Crimson, it looks like it's at least 4-5mm further towards the 17th fret, which will explain the bridge and pickup rout misalignment.

This visual comparison assumes that the Fender and Crimson body neck pockets are of identical dimensions.

If, for whatever reason, Crimson has altered the traditional T body outline in the neck pocket area, the relative positions of the body edge and the frets will not correspond to vintage Fender expectations.

@deano Please will you measure the distance between the adjacent edges of neck pickup and neck pocket routs on the Crimson kit body? (Expect something in the region of 12mm or 15/32nds".)

Hi, I'm not sure what you want measuring but I've took a few photos (below) which might give you what you want, but if not let me know.

The overhang that the end of the neck makes with the end of the fingerboard is 7/32"

From the end of the fingerboard to the front edge of the neck pickup route is another 7/32", so fron the end of the neck to the front edge of the pickup route is approximately 7/16" to 15/32".

The ruler is centred on the 16th fret, so as you can see the neck is 3/16"

Hope this helps.

GSPBASSES

Have you contacted Crimson guitars and explain the problem you have?

 I'm not sure if you're buying a new bridge for the right reasons, the extra length of the bridge you have is behind the through body holes and does not affect the intonation point. I think I would have fitted the bridge put the strings on the guitar and check the intonation before buying a new bridge. Although fender scale length is 648mm you will more likely find when the guitar is tuned and intonation sorted, the measurement from nut on high E is more likely to be 649mm, possibly a little bit more, the bridge you have may well have worked. You'll find all the holes on the bridge you have order will be in exactly the same place as the bridge you have, even if you ordered a Wilkinson or Fender bridge the spicing of the holes are all the same. Having said that the bridge you've ordered will work better anyway simply because the adjustment on the intonation screws is at least twice as much, most likely more than the bridge you have.

 

I would be very surprised if Crimson guitars bodies and necks are made incorrectly   as I believe the kit guitars come of the same CNC as the custom Telecaster's and Stratocaster's that they make, having said that we do know of another maker who's CNC does tend to make some Fender body neck pockets incorrectly. One thing that did surprise me looking at the photos of the body on their website is that the through body holes are not predrilled, nor the screw holes. As drilling those holes without good quality pillar drill with a very deep throat is very difficult.

It may well be that Crimson guitars have made a few changes to the Telecaster kit they sell, hoping to keep Fenders attack lawyers away, Although I doubt it on second thoughts, mainly because the Telecaster is one of the simplest partcasters to put together. Most off-the-shelf hardware should just drop into place, although there's a lot of pick guards out there that are just wrong. Some of the very cheap  Chinese bridges don't fit, but funny enough the cheap Chinese pick guards do fit.

Please stop using Imperial measurements. We went metric years ago. The only acceptable Imperial measurement now with guitars are fingerboard radius and scale length.

gavin_axecaster

GSPBASSES said:

 One thing that did surprise me looking at the photos of the body on their website is that the through body holes are not predrilled, nor the screw holes. As drilling those holes without good quality pillar drill with a very deep throat is very difficult.

I saw a youtube video where Ben claimed they left the through holes undrilled to give the most versatility for bridge fitting. Sounded like a copout to to me - with a standard Tele bridge pickup rout 99% of people will be using a vintage spec bridge, either modern style like the Gotoh or vintage style like Fender plates.

It may well be that Crimson guitars have made a few changes to the Telecaster kit they sell, hoping to keep Fenders attack lawyers away

Doubtful - Fender don't have a trademark on the body shape and the headstocks which Fender do have trademarks for are regular Fender shape.

Funkfingers

deano said:
I'm not sure what you want measuring but I took a few photos

Hope this helps.

Aye. That was the measurement that I wanted. It tells me that the neck pickup cavity is (near enough) the correct distance from the neck pocket.

Unfortunately, this does not explain why the 16th fret ends up further away from the body edge than is conventional on a genuine Fender Telecaster. This fact alone does not prevent the kit from being assembled but, uncorrected, it will leave both pickups closer to the bridge saddle node points than normal. This may have a negative effect on the overall tone.

As you know, this type of guitar body is formed from a blank via a sequence of passes on a router, guided by templates. It is possible that the human operator positioned one or two of the templates incorrectly. On the other hand, since the product images on the Crimson eBay Shop page exhibit the same error, it is possible that "they're all like that, sir."

The whole issue could be an optical illusion caused by the body edge around the heel area not conforming to Fender blueprints.

Meanwhile, one of your photographs includes a neck anchoring plate. Does this indicate that the body and neck are now drilled for the fastening screws? If they have been, you are pretty much committed to working with the (mis)alignments as they stand. 

WezV said:

Can you easily extend the bridge pickup cavity? I would rather have an extended pickup cavity that’s hidden and use the bridge of choice.

I agree with this suggestion. The task could be undertaken with hand tools. The result may not be pretty but it will be hidden beneath the finish and the bridge assembly. 

For what it is worth, it is possible to enlarge the bridge pickup cavity to Filter'Tron proportions with no fear of it being visible along either edge of a vintage-style stamped steel bridge. Hence, the modern machined from solid Gotoh bridge is certain to disguise everything.

gavin_axecaster

If you look at the picture of the back of the body on the Crimson site it looks like the top of the neck pocket is slightly truncated, as well as having sharper than normal corners. I think this is probably where the "16th fret" variance is happening and wouldn't affect scale length or pickup positioning.

https://crimsonguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Kit-Guitar-Tele-Type-2.jpg

deano

Funkfingers said:

Meanwhile, one of your photographs includes a neck anchoring plate. Does this indicate that the body and neck are now drilled for the fastening screws? If they have been, you are pretty much committed to working with the (mis)alignments as they stand. 

Umm... Err.... that would be me!

I put the neck in, drilled the holes and screwed it together. I wanted to do that to give me a solid join between the neck and the body for measuring from the nut to find where the bridge should sit. It was in making these measurements that I noticed the problems I outlined in my OP.

I'm not sure what else I could have done though.

I would like to say everything else looks good; the centreline on the body is spot on with the centreline of the neck according to (a) my measurements across the fingerboard to find its centre and (b) the centres of the fret markers; my cardboard template of the bridge with the smaller footprint seems to fit where it should (I'm still waiting for the real thing to arrive) when I put the pickguard in place. But of course I don't have enough knowledge to tell if they really are good, or that they only appear so to me.

Still I do know more than I did this time last week!

I was going to drill through the body (I have bought the ferrules) but the new bridge offers rear-stringing as well, so I might do that rather than drill the holes in the wrong place.

Does anyone have any recommendations where to buy my next body? It will need to be shaped and routed because I don't have room for bandsaws and the like unfortunately.

gavin_axecaster

deano said:

I was going to drill through the body (I have bought the ferrules) but the new bridge offers rear-stringing as well, so I might do that rather than drill the holes in the wrong place.

The Gotoh BS-TC1S is string-through only as standard so unless NW have modified it you will need to drill the holes.

GSPBASSES

I think everybody is getting a bit obsessed with where the 16th fret should be. If the neck pocket has been shortened on the outer edge it will make no difference to the  intonation line, the outer end of the pocket can be longer or shorter, it will make no difference. The critical place is where the end of the neck pocket is with in the body. When the neck is placed in the pocket, fret 22 should be at the end of the neck pocket,  if it's a 21 fret neck the end of the neck should be where fret 22 would be.  Most of the vintage bridges and modern vintage bridges have so much movement on each of the saddles you could be 2 -3 mm out where the neck pocket ends and still be able to get the correct  intonation.

I would like to have seen the bridge placed on the body to see how much wood was showing in the pickup rout, as I'm now wondering if the problem is when the bridge is placed over the pickup rout and you can just about get the intonation right by measurement, then it's a good chance that the pick guard is incorrect and is too long.

ICBM

gavin_axecaster said:

If you look at the picture of the back of the body on the Crimson site it looks like the top of the neck pocket is slightly truncated, as well as having sharper than normal corners. I think this is probably where the "16th fret" variance is happening and wouldn't affect scale length or pickup positioning.

If you put a straightedge across it, it seems to be in line with the tip of the horn and the upper bout, which is exactly as per Fender. (Although it is slightly oddly angled!)

GSPBASSES said:

I think everybody is getting a bit obsessed with where the 16th fret should be. If the neck pocket has been shortened on the outer edge it will make no difference to the  intonation line, the outer end of the pocket can be longer or shorter, it will make no difference. The critical place is where the end of the neck pocket is with in the body.

Yes, but if the body outline is correct then the neck pocket is too short at the inner end if the neck sticks out too far. I think it's a very likely explanation for the misalignment of the intonation point derived from the scale length and the position of the bridge pickup rout. The position of the 16th fret was just the first thing that jumped out to me when I saw the picture.

The neck pickup rout may also be out of position if it's the correct distance from the neck pocket.