Help wiring push pull switch

th902

Hi folks, I'm having trouble getting my head around how a push pull switch works. I'm trying to wire it just before the output jack, so that I can switch between two outputs, one normal, (down position) and one with a high pass filter (pulled up position). I have the capacitor for the high pass filter. So how do I wire this up? 

The switch is on the tone knob, but if I'm not mistaken, that doesn't matter, does it? The switch and pot are independent from one another. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Cheers!

Funkfingers

The switch portion of a push-pull pot is a Double Pole, Double Throw (DPDT) on/on type. Each vertical line of three contacts is one pole. The central terminal contact of each pole is always in circuit. The internals determine which of the two other terminals will also be in circuit. Thus, each pole can act as either "one in, two out" or "two in, one out".

Visualise the terminals as follows;
___
1  4
2  5
3  6

For the HPF to be engaged when the pot is pulled up, connect the filter network and an insulated wire to terminal 1. The wire goes to terminal 4. The filter network goes to ground.

The normal (bypass) connection goes between terminals 3 and 6.

The signal from the other controls enters the switch at terminal 2.

The signal leaves the switch towards the output jack socket from terminal 5.




It may actually be easier to leave the normal connections to the output jack alone. Just add the HPF in parallel with the existing harness.

th902

Hey, cheers for the reply, it's helping me to understand it a bit better. I had a look at this http://oi67.tinypic.com/2lc0kf5.jpg, and the capacitor doesn't go to ground, is it absolutely necessary? 

Funkfingers

I was describing a cutting filter. You described a passing filter. 

th902

Ok, I'm lost now haha. It's a Jaguar, I'm moving the high pass switch from the control plate to a push/pull knob. I did it already according to that picture I just posted, and it works, but the effect seems less obvious than before. Not sure if it's my imagination, or would attaching the capactior to ground like you described would help bring out the effect more?  

ICBM

th902 said:

Hey, cheers for the reply, it's helping me to understand it a bit better. I had a look at this http://oi67.tinypic.com/2lc0kf5.jpg, and the capacitor doesn't go to ground, is it absolutely necessary? 

That's an absolutely ludicrous method of wiring it that maximises unreliability - in either mode the signal has to pass through two switch contacts.

Simply connect the output from the pickup selector to both middle terminals, the volume pot to both top terminals, and the cap between the two of them. That way the cap is in the signal path at all times, and the switch just bypasses it with both poles in parallel, maximising reliability.

th902

Ahh. Right, I just quickly changed that around and made this shoddy thing https://imgur.com/a/m7UTap3. Is that what you just described? And will that make the "down" position bypass the filter?

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

Simply connect the output from the pickup selector to both middle terminals, the volume pot to both top terminals, and the cap between the two of them. That way the cap is in the signal path at all times, and the switch just bypasses it with both poles in parallel, maximising reliability.

That is, pretty much, what the stock vintage Fender Jaguar circuit does with the third slider switch. The resultant sound is terrible but sometimes useful in recording situations. 

th902 said:

it works but the effect seems less obvious than before. Not sure if it's my imagination  

Er, what are the resistance value and taper of the push-pull pot that you used? A vintage correct American-made Jaguar uses a 1 Meg Ohm pot. Replacing this with a 500k pot or a poor quality 1 Meg pot is likely to alter the sound of the guitar, regardless of whether the Strangle switch is engaged.

I am not a fan of 1 Meg pots but, for me, a vintage style Jaguar sounds wrong with any other values.

ICBM

th902 said:

Ahh. Right, I just quickly changed that around and made this shoddy thing https://imgur.com/a/m7UTap3. Is that what you just described? And will that make the "down" position bypass the filter?

Yes. It should do if the pot part is at the bottom in the pic. There are a very few push-pulls that work the other way round, but most operate the switch in the same direction as the knob movement, if that makes sense!

Funkfingers said:

That is, pretty much, what the stock vintage Fender Jaguar circuit does with the third slider switch. The resultant sound is terrible but sometimes useful in recording situations.

I used to find that sound quite useful .

th902

Funkfingers said:

ICBM said:

Simply connect the output from the pickup selector to both middle terminals, the volume pot to both top terminals, and the cap between the two of them. That way the cap is in the signal path at all times, and the switch just bypasses it with both poles in parallel, maximising reliability.

That is, pretty much, what the stock vintage Fender Jaguar circuit does with the third slider switch. The resultant sound is terrible but sometimes useful in recording situations. 

th902 said:

it works but the effect seems less obvious than before. Not sure if it's my imagination  

Er, what are the resistance value and taper of the push-pull pot that you used? A vintage correct American-made Jaguar uses a 1 Meg Ohm pot. Replacing this with a 500k pot or a poor quality 1 Meg pot is likely to alter the sound of the guitar, regardless of whether the Strangle switch is engaged.

I am not a fan of 1 Meg pots but, for me, a vintage style Jaguar sounds wrong with any other values.

Yeah I've put in a 500k. It barely sounds any different to my ears, and if anything, the top end was a bit much to begin with anyway. It's a Squier VM, so I'm not butchering anything crazy expensive, no worries there haha. The reason I wanted to do it right before the output was so it could filter the rhythm circuit aswell. 

th902

ICBM said:

th902 said:

Ahh. Right, I just quickly changed that around and made this shoddy thing https://imgur.com/a/m7UTap3. Is that what you just described? And will that make the "down" position bypass the filter?

Yes. It should do if the pot part is at the bottom in the pic. There are a very few push-pulls that work the other way round, but most operate the switch in the same direction as the knob movement, if that makes sense!

Funkfingers said:

That is, pretty much, what the stock vintage Fender Jaguar circuit does with the third slider switch. The resultant sound is terrible but sometimes useful in recording situations.

I used to find that sound quite useful .

I agree on the usefulness too haha. Good for ratty, tinny sounds.

I'll give that a try now and report back then. 

Funkfingers

th902 said:

I've put in a 500k. It barely sounds any different to my ears, and if anything, the top end was a bit much to begin with anyway. It's a Squier VM

Say no more.

Those leave the factory with 009-042 gauge strings. 

th902

Funkfingers said:

th902 said:

I've put in a 500k. It barely sounds any different to my ears, and if anything, the top end was a bit much to begin with anyway. It's a Squier VM

Say no more.

Those leave the factory with 009-042 gauge strings. 

Haha, I play on 9s anyway.

It all seems to be working ok now, but there's a bit of a bassy thud when switching, not like the other switches on the Jag. I can put up with it, seems like it can't really be helped anyhow. Cheers for the advice folks. 

ICBM

th902 said:

Funkfingers said:

th902 said:

It's a Squier VM

Those leave the factory with 009-042 gauge strings. 

Haha, I play on 9s anyway.

But with the short scale and extended string length at the tailpiece, you really need 11s on a Jaguar to give roughly the same tension and feel.

th902

ICBM said:

th902 said:

Funkfingers said:

th902 said:

It's a Squier VM

Those leave the factory with 009-042 gauge strings. 

Haha, I play on 9s anyway.

But with the short scale and extended string length at the tailpiece, you really need 11s on a Jaguar to give roughly the same tension and feel.

Works for me my man. Never been into heavy strings

ICBM

th902 said:

Works for me my man. Never been into heavy strings

11s aren't heavy, especially not on a Jaguar. I can understand 9s on a Strat, but on a Jag they'll be like elastic bands.

Can you even get the trem to set up properly? There's usually not enough adjustment range on the spring to work with anything that light.

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

Can you even get the vibrato to set up properly?

FTFY

The Squier VM Jaguar and Mustang vibratos are generic Asian lookalikes. Compared to the American originals (and aftermarket upgrades), they are made imprecisely and from poorer quality materials. Plenty of fettling and de-burring required. 

ICBM said:
There's usually not enough adjustment range on the spring to work with anything that light.

All of the pre-CBS Fender vibrato designs were intended for use with what we now think of as Medium gauge string sets - possibly, including a wound G. (THINK: Subtle Marvin shimmers rather than wild Hendrix stunts.) With 11s (or upwards), the Jaguar/Jazzmaster system gives of its best. I always find 10s indecisive. 9s are meh! 

One option for increasing overall string tension without going to really big strings is to increase the neck pitch angle with a shim. There are valid arguments for and against this.