If your shelling out a couple of grand plus

Rabs

customkits said:

Rabs said: 

True.. I have thought about this before actually and may try at some point.. Sadly its been a long hard year so I haven't been able to do any work at all for a while.. I will decide when this is all over what is next..  Ive done some shows the last few years but had no time so far this year so we will see.. I also took some to the FB jam a short while back which was fun.... And one of my guitars was used for a few songs too which was cool 

I get the long hard road bit, I'm still in it, the workshop only got usable a few months ago 

This is not an easy thing to do is it, i still find motivation a problem sometimes personally not work wise, you've just got to keep going but it might take you longer that's all

Yes its not easy..

Im in a position I can do it, or I was (that may change soon) and I really want to do the best by people and make guitars people want and will love...  Im pretty sure most of us small guys aren't in it for the money (anyone who has actually tried it will know that), only for the love of wood, guitars and music.. I know that's why I do it.

I have watched Ben at Crimson for a while.. Watched him go from a guy in the back shed to a well established company.. He has done it through Youtube and by offering courses and selling tools and supplies etc..  Which I think if you actually want to make big money is the way  to do it...  I doubt id be capable of running a business like that and don't really want too.

stickyfiddle

TINMAN82 said:

A custom build is always going to be a gamble. With bolt on neck styles you can go “hybrid” and dip your toe a bit. I’ve got an excellent musikraft strat neck made to my personal specifications. Only cost around £400 shipped from the US. It’s bolted on to an Eric Johnson genuine Fender body with high end Callaham parts and bare knuckle pickups.

On paper it’s a near perfect strat (in terms of what I thought that was). It also happens to be the guitar I play the least and lacks mojo. Go figure.

It’s funny, cos I have a music raft neck on a Squier body with Callaham hardware & RioGrande pickups and it’s amazing. Just shows the combination of the right bits with the right other bits is essential, and you can’t be sure of that until it’s bolted together. 

grappagreen

stickyfiddle said:

TINMAN82 said:

A custom build is always going to be a gamble. With bolt on neck styles you can go “hybrid” and dip your toe a bit. I’ve got an excellent musikraft strat neck made to my personal specifications. Only cost around £400 shipped from the US. It’s bolted on to an Eric Johnson genuine Fender body with high end Callaham parts and bare knuckle pickups.

On paper it’s a near perfect strat (in terms of what I thought that was). It also happens to be the guitar I play the least and lacks mojo. Go figure.

It’s funny, cos I have a music raft neck on a Squier body with Callaham hardware & RioGrande pickups and it’s amazing. Just shows the combination of the right bits with the right other bits is essential, and you can’t be sure of that until it’s bolted together. 

My view is that pretty much every ‘amazing’ electric guitar is a happy accident. Sure a build by one of the high end companies/builders  (not high volume) has a much greater chance of falling into the ‘great’ category but the amazing ones are a greater function of luck than judgement.

There’s a big difference between custom and customised.. I have no problem with a standard (proven) design being tweaked to your reasonable requirements but I’d run a mile from the ‘I want you to build me this’ type of commission. Too much chance of acquiring a turd and too much of a resale hit if it turns out to be said turd!

Si

hotpickups

I've gone the custom build route. The answer for me is that I wanted something different looking and not follow the crowds - It's always been that way with me. PLUS one can spec up exactly how one likes things as well as cosmetic stuff. Yeah it's expensive but that's the price for being unique and being your own man etc. End of the day it's a personal thing and being unique will mean it will effect resale value but then again I don't shift on guitars unless I really have to or don't get on with a guitar. I thoroughly tried and tested the guitar build I've gone with before placing my order though so it's a calculated risk etc 

Fifty9

I’m a dyed in the wool F & G person and to me, if I was to come up with something that is unique and custom spec’d to fit my needs / preferences I think there’s one maker who already does that - PRS. Inevitably my custom spec would be some kind of mashup of the two with the highest levels of precision & craftmanship. Which is basically a PRS is it not? Modern eagle, Paul’s guitar, Custom 22/24.

Then with the likes of Knaggs, Huber & Collings - even Patrick Eggle/JJ/Framus - there’s plenty of scope for getting a variation on what I know I like as the core sounds & spec’s. 

The only other way ‘custom’ could go in my view is the totally outlandish stuff or something like Billy Gibbons designs or even Phil X’s metallic go faster stripe framus SG.

Loads of choice already. Can’t see what I’d be selecting beyond that. Maybe it’s my imagination but we’re luck to have so many high quality options.

viz

Grumpyrocker said:

I've often stared at the Feline custom build form and realised even if I had the money I wouldn't have a clue what to order for many of the options. And what I might think I'd like isn't necessarily what I'd like when it was done.

Sometimes it's easier to choose from a smaller set of options. 

See jam experiment.

https://youtu.be/Ya-6QguFmRo

chris78

customkits said:

chris78 said:

A Fender Custom Shop Guitar isn’t a mass production line guitar. Yes, they’re made in a factory, but there is a world of difference in how they’re made compared to the regular production line. The idea that a boutique builder is somehow a more skilled craftsman compared with Gibson custom shop or Fender master builders or even custom shop is just rubbish. That’s not to say someone like Patrick Eggle doesn’t make incredible guitars, but if you asked him to make a blackguard tele, he’d make it the same way as a Dale Wilson or Jason Smith. Ron Thorn is a masterbuilder now and that should tell you all you need about how good those guys are.

Sorry but that is complete nonsense, you honestly think some so called master builder, whatever that is is actually making anything in a factory is laughable to me

What is a master builder btw, is he somehow more skilled than a one person luthier workshop,  i don't think so,  i love the thought of this master builder running around making anything start to finish

This is nothing more than fender marketing
B. S, they might pick lighter weight wood, big deal it's already been cnc'd or nicer looking maple necks, he never made it that's for sure 

Then you’re calling the masterbuilder who attended Peach’s evening a liar. He was extremely proud of his work and stated he did everything from start to finish on the guitar. That’s what you pay for. I doubt very much he’d be allowed to say it if it’s untrue.

Im not sure why people believe that a small luthier can do everything and that’s ok, but in a massive firm, they couldn’t possibly do that?

Garthy

chris78 said:

customkits said:

chris78 said:

A Fender Custom Shop Guitar isn’t a mass production line guitar. Yes, they’re made in a factory, but there is a world of difference in how they’re made compared to the regular production line. The idea that a boutique builder is somehow a more skilled craftsman compared with Gibson custom shop or Fender master builders or even custom shop is just rubbish. That’s not to say someone like Patrick Eggle doesn’t make incredible guitars, but if you asked him to make a blackguard tele, he’d make it the same way as a Dale Wilson or Jason Smith. Ron Thorn is a masterbuilder now and that should tell you all you need about how good those guys are.

Sorry but that is complete nonsense, you honestly think some so called master builder, whatever that is is actually making anything in a factory is laughable to me

What is a master builder btw, is he somehow more skilled than a one person luthier workshop,  i don't think so,  i love the thought of this master builder running around making anything start to finish

This is nothing more than fender marketing
B. S, they might pick lighter weight wood, big deal it's already been cnc'd or nicer looking maple necks, he never made it that's for sure 

Then you’re calling the masterbuilder who attended Peach’s evening a liar. He was extremely proud of his work and stated he did everything from start to finish on the guitar. That’s what you pay for. I doubt very much he’d be allowed to say it if it’s untrue.

Im not sure why people believe that a small luthier can do everything and that’s ok, but in a massive firm, they couldn’t possibly do that?

So a MB from Fender is going to use wood that has never seen a CNC machine? Is he or she going to cut the scratch plate by hand? Wind the pickups themselves?

Garthy

grappagreen said:

stickyfiddle said:

TINMAN82 said:

A custom build is always going to be a gamble. With bolt on neck styles you can go “hybrid” and dip your toe a bit. I’ve got an excellent musikraft strat neck made to my personal specifications. Only cost around £400 shipped from the US. It’s bolted on to an Eric Johnson genuine Fender body with high end Callaham parts and bare knuckle pickups.

On paper it’s a near perfect strat (in terms of what I thought that was). It also happens to be the guitar I play the least and lacks mojo. Go figure.

It’s funny, cos I have a music raft neck on a Squier body with Callaham hardware & RioGrande pickups and it’s amazing. Just shows the combination of the right bits with the right other bits is essential, and you can’t be sure of that until it’s bolted together. 

My view is that pretty much every ‘amazing’ electric guitar is a happy accident. Sure a build by one of the high end companies/builders  (not high volume) has a much greater chance of falling into the ‘great’ category but the amazing ones are a greater function of luck than judgement.

There’s a big difference between custom and customised.. I have no problem with a standard (proven) design being tweaked to your reasonable requirements but I’d run a mile from the ‘I want you to build me this’ type of commission. Too much chance of acquiring a turd and too much of a resale hit if it turns out to be said turd!

Si

It's funny you should say that. The planets aligned when the neck of my Jackson found the body. OK the hardware is low grade crap but that's all interchangable anyway.

JerkMoans

FelineGuitars said:

Sadly it seems that only those with an axe to grind come on to talk about custom built stuff they have

We don't see many of ours come up on the second hand market, or if they do it is because they ended up in the hands of serial guitar flippers.

How very dare you  

Danielsguitars

chris78 said:

Then you’re calling the masterbuilder who attended Peach’s evening a liar. He was extremely proud of his work and stated he did everything from start to finish on the guitar. That’s what you pay for. I doubt very much he’d be allowed to say it if it’s untrue.

Im not sure why people believe that a small luthier can do everything and that’s ok, but in a massive firm, they couldn’t possibly do that?

How many is this guy making per year, then I'll tell you if i think I'm right

I know how long it takes me to make something and it's certainly not going to sustain a custom shop wage and make a decent profit for fender, they're a big business at the end of the day

Just doing a proper nitro paint job is best part of a month, that's waiting a couple of weeks to cure

There's a guy on Instagram jay nelson, he's a fender custom shop painter

FelineGuitars

viz said:

Grumpyrocker said:

I've often stared at the Feline custom build form and realised even if I had the money I wouldn't have a clue what to order for many of the options. And what I might think I'd like isn't necessarily what I'd like when it was done.

Sometimes it's easier to choose from a smaller set of options. 

See jam experiment.

https://youtu.be/Ya-6QguFmRo

We are trying to keep it relatively simple if you want to choose from within our popular range

Fifty9

Ok but they’re working on multiple guitars in parallel not sat waiting for a guitar to cure.

It’s part skilled builders (incl their qc) & part materials / spec which is sufficient to justify the premium - to those who can afford it.

As we know, the Mexico & standard lines, as well as some of the Asian made stuff, do put out some great guitars so it’s just a case of Fender offering a ‘premium’ line vs those that’s all. Same principle as in many other industries. They’re just giving the market what it wants. 

Hattigol

Isn't the issue that with every guitar in the world being different (even if only slightly), you don't know until you actually play a particular one whether you will get on with it? That applies to those from mainstream suppliers as well as from small custom builders.

So that means, for me and my meagre talents anyway, that I wouldn't be wanting to spec out my own guitar for fear that, however much I specced to out it to my taste, ultimately there would be no way of knowing until too late (i.e. once it  was finished and in my hands) whether I was going to like it.

DPC

I've had 4 custom guitar builds and kept only one. The one I kept has a spec that cannot be matched by any production guitar (although who knows, one day i might sell that too).

Those custom guitars were fantastic (Suhrs) but over the years my tastes changed, and I simply began to prefer the tones produced by mahogany/maple guitars. I had a discount on the guitars so didn't lose huge amounts of money on resale, but I still lost plenty. But resale value would not be my only caveat - the other would be that your tastes are likely to change over the years so what's perfect for you now, might not be in a few years time.

With that said, if you can afford it then I would keep the custom builds and wait for the next cycle of change!

chris78

Garthy said:

chris78 said:

customkits said:

chris78 said:

A Fender Custom Shop Guitar isn’t a mass production line guitar. Yes, they’re made in a factory, but there is a world of difference in how they’re made compared to the regular production line. The idea that a boutique builder is somehow a more skilled craftsman compared with Gibson custom shop or Fender master builders or even custom shop is just rubbish. That’s not to say someone like Patrick Eggle doesn’t make incredible guitars, but if you asked him to make a blackguard tele, he’d make it the same way as a Dale Wilson or Jason Smith. Ron Thorn is a masterbuilder now and that should tell you all you need about how good those guys are.

Sorry but that is complete nonsense, you honestly think some so called master builder, whatever that is is actually making anything in a factory is laughable to me

What is a master builder btw, is he somehow more skilled than a one person luthier workshop,  i don't think so,  i love the thought of this master builder running around making anything start to finish

This is nothing more than fender marketing
B. S, they might pick lighter weight wood, big deal it's already been cnc'd or nicer looking maple necks, he never made it that's for sure 

Then you’re calling the masterbuilder who attended Peach’s evening a liar. He was extremely proud of his work and stated he did everything from start to finish on the guitar. That’s what you pay for. I doubt very much he’d be allowed to say it if it’s untrue.

Im not sure why people believe that a small luthier can do everything and that’s ok, but in a massive firm, they couldn’t possibly do that?

So a MB from Fender is going to use wood that has never seen a CNC machine? Is he or she going to cut the scratch plate by hand? Wind the pickups themselves?

It’s pretty well publicised that the pickups are handwound to their specs, mainly by Josefina Campos, but some will wind their own pickups. See John Cruz.

Again, I can only repeat what Fender said and that is that they hand male and hand sand the lot, do their own fretwork, setup etc.

If you’d like to call them liars, that’s between you and their legal department. Personally, I find it incredible that someone believes a little builder in the uk can claim to build every single part of the guitar by hand, yet when Fender claim the same it’s rubbish. I’m also aware of so called custom builders doing nothing more than assembling parts they’ve got from elsewhere (often all parts) and charging a fortune for it

chris78

customkits said:

chris78 said:

Then you’re calling the masterbuilder who attended Peach’s evening a liar. He was extremely proud of his work and stated he did everything from start to finish on the guitar. That’s what you pay for. I doubt very much he’d be allowed to say it if it’s untrue.

Im not sure why people believe that a small luthier can do everything and that’s ok, but in a massive firm, they couldn’t possibly do that?

How many is this guy making per year, then I'll tell you if i think I'm right

I know how long it takes me to make something and it's certainly not going to sustain a custom shop wage and make a decent profit for fender, they're a big business at the end of the day

Just doing a proper nitro paint job is best part of a month, that's waiting a couple of weeks to cure

There's a guy on Instagram jay nelson, he's a fender custom shop painter

Ask Fender about numbers. All I know is there aren’t many around. Peach might get 2-3 Dale Wilson’s a year. Of course, they will have the facilities to make more than 1 guitar at a time! They were quite open that it takes at least a month for the nitro to cure but they’ll be working on other guitars while the nitro is curing. That’s not rocket science. 

If you search tinterweb, Mike Eldred has made comments on forums and was clear that bodies and necks were shaped by hand by the masterbuilder who did his own paintwork, fretwork etc etc.

I realise you have a business to run which is in competition with Fender and you need your product in some way to be “superior” to compete, but I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to suggest that a 5-7k bolt on guitar could be handmade by Fender.

Danielsguitars

chris78 said:

I realise you have a business to run which is in competition with Fender and you need your product in some way to be “superior” to compete, but I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to suggest that a 5-7k bolt on guitar could be handmade by Fender.

I find charging 5 to 7k for a bolt on utterly ridiculous in the first place but i do think you've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm not in competition with fender, how is that even possible btw
i don't have a massive factory and a company that's 300 mil in debt,  I'm not sure what market share they have but they've got to keep pumping them out just to stay afloat

Why isn't that guy called a fender luthier ratger than masterbuiler, that is after all the term used for someone who makes guitars, the term is stupid imo

In fact I'm not that mad on fender tbh, i like elements of certain guitars and prefer to mix and match, things like a dc junior with a tele bridge and strat neck pickup appeal to me and 
I'm also predominantly a set neck builder, not because i think it's superior, i just hate screws and bolts on the back of a guitar, although i do prefer the tone of set necks but that's my preference, I've made a set neck tele and strat so i can compare,  it's not speculation

That's about enough for me, I've said my bit and people will buy what they want it's there money

chris78

customkits said:

chris78 said:

I realise you have a business to run which is in competition with Fender and you need your product in some way to be “superior” to compete, but I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to suggest that a 5-7k bolt on guitar could be handmade by Fender.

I find charging 5 to 7k for a bolt on utterly ridiculous in the first place but i do think you've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm not in competition with fender, how is that even possible btw
i don't have a massive factory and a company that's 300 mil in debt,  I'm not sure what market share they have but they've got to keep pumping them out just to stay afloat

Why isn't that guy called a fender luthier ratger than masterbuiler, that is after all the term used for someone who makes guitars, the term is stupid imo

In fact I'm not that mad on fender tbh, i like elements of certain guitars and prefer to mix and match, things like a dc junior with a tele bridge and strat neck pickup appeal to me and 
I'm also predominantly a set neck builder, not because i think it's superior, i just hate screws and bolts on the back of a guitar, although i do prefer the tone of set necks but that's my preference, I've made a set neck tele and strat so i can compare,  it's not speculation

That's about enough for me, I've said my bit and people will buy what they want it's there money

Again, just not true. Their last press release had them under $100mill in debt with over $500mill revenue and high single digit growth. That would suggest they aren’t exactly struggling like you’re suggesting.

I wish you all the best with your business. I always like to buy British where possible but I do have a problem where competitors (you are like it not as you both build electric guitars and us punters will make a choice where to spend our money) spread baseless made up “facts” to justify their product against someone else’s. If you can come up with some hard evidence to show that Fender’s claims about Masterbuilt guitars are untrue, I’ll happily retract every word I’ve written as Fender won’t have been honest with me or the general public.

HAL9000

From an earlier job as an analyst/programmer I'm well aware that what people ask for and what they actually want are not one and the same. I'm pretty certain it's exactly the same with buying guitars. Plus our own prejudices get in the way.

For instance... For years I'd always played Teles. I liked the simplicity and workmanlike functionality of them. Lots of my favourite players used them, and they did the job. Never really considered anything else. Didn't want anything with a whammy bar as I knew I'd never use it and it just seemed like an unnecessary complications. In fact I lusted after an Esquire essentially because it's an even simpler beast than a Tele.

Then one day, on a whim, I bought a Strat. More versatile, more comfortable, and currently my go to.

I also, more recently, converted a Tele to an Esquire-alike only to find I didn't really enjoy playing it much at all.

So, if I'd been spec'ing my 'ideal' guitar back in my pre-Strat days it would have been a simple T-type of some description - and it would have been so wrong, and I'd probably be a couple of grand worse off. As others have already said, buying something off the shelf at least gets you something that you can try before parting with your hard-earned, and that hopefully can be moved on without too much of a hit.