Trying to re-build a dog - Hayman 2020 H - And failing

guitars4you

So a few months ago I acquired a Hayman 2020 H as per above - Frets were totally knackered and represented nothing more than a line on the fingerboard - But the guitar had character and somehow I think it is cool, so I purchased it, with a few to a re-build and re-fret

No blame whatsoever to the tech who did the re-fret for me - At this stage let me 100% state that what follows below is no reflection on their work - They have done  a few jobs for me recently and their work is exemplary  - His attention to detail is fine and his opinions fully appreciated - the refret itself is fine and the guitar feels so much better now than before - He passed comment that it was a pain to work on, with various hidden problems once work got underway - Total credit to him, as he charged me effectively what we agreed, but I dare say if he charged out his true time spent on the project, then the cost wold have been silly - 

Normally if/when I undertake such 'restorations' I might own/play it for a few months first, to appraise the guitar and to see what needs to be done - But this was so bad, it couldn't get worse. hence it went straight to the tech

The guitar has shed loads of character - But any cost involved in the initial purchase and work carried out are limited by any potential sale price 

So the re-fret is done and yes the neck/playability is okay - The issue is primarily tuning and effectively results from the day it was first built/assembled 

To save me typing out more notes, here is  a copy of my e-mail I sent to a potential buyer who had shown interest on it, via an earlier posting on FB

Hard to explain the issues, as not one specific problem/answer to the related issues of concern - I'm spoilt  selling so many nice guitars and no matter if you like a PRS or not, they are engineered and built to perfection, so very little, if any problems arise - The Hayman is just about okay on open chords and simple one's at that - Step out of this and the intonation/tuning is out - I don't know by how much it is out, as I've not measured it, but 1% or 10% and it makes no difference to me as out is out - Barre chords,  Chuck Berry style rhythm, open chords are all out and not one string but most/all - Play say an open E Low string, against the appropriate notes of an E chord further up the fingerboard (classical arpeggio style) and it is totally unusable - Just badly built from day one

 Can't move the bridge as the string holes on the rear of the body won't then line up

 In many ways I wish I'd played it more before sending it off - But it was so bad that it couldn't be worse - It plays okay regarding the feel of the neck and re-fret, but just unusable regarding the tuning - I've noticed this before on various other cool guitars from the 50's and 60's - As it happens, many Far Eastern built replicas are better built, with less issues than many of the originals ever were,  ie Italia and Supro

 Basically it is good for a video or album cover, but bugger all else - The more fussy you are as a player the more you'll not accept it

 I was going to upgrade the pots - Following a tip of from another FB member about the value to use - The original ones work, but a bit scratchy (as you'd maybe expect for the age) but I don't want to spend any more time/money on it  

 I'm not going to waste my time listing it on my web site, for a potential mail order deal, only to have to refund 14 days later via LDSR as it won't be acceptable to many - So waste of time for all, + additional costs incurred at my end

 I'm glad I can be honest about it as many won't be

 Don't know what else to say, but with respect I don't want to spend any more time on it - If builders built new guitars like this today they would be hung drawn and 1/4'd on forums etc etc

So bottom line is a 'project' that has gone wrong - Pity has it has character - I'll probably leave it for now as it still looks cool - I'll probably take it to a couple of shows as it still looks cool on the stand, so hence a talking point - But I don't expect to sell it and certainly don't expect to make any profit, now or in the future - Not worth me spending any more time on it and don't have time for it to be a labour of love project - So there goes

I have a soft spot for Aaron Kaufman - A talented mechanic that some might know via Fast n Loud - I admire his ability and knowledge, so had this in mind when I acquired this guitar, or indeed other similar projects - But costs and potential selling price are a factor to take into account ref this project - Also such hardware is totally bespoke to such a guitar, so no 'upgraded' replacements available to improve the situation - Could I try and replace the bridge assembly with say a Tele bridge ? Maybe, but it would not look right and would destroy the guitars integrity - Maybe a good engineer can strip down the bridge and rebuild, but well beyond my ability and costs would not make it worth it at my end 

Oh well

impmann

Mark...

Ill pm you later. But if you are giving up, I’d be more than keen on taking it over.

guitars4you

impmann said:

Mark...

Ill pm you later. But if you are giving up, I’d be more than keen on taking it over.

contact me as and when - Happy to chat about it

jonnygreentrees

I bought a 70s Les Paul copy a while back, can't remember the brand, and the bridge was in the wrong place from the factory meaning it couldn't be intonated correctly.

Frustrating 

longshins

I’m the potential buyer who contacted Mark, Impmann, I think you may be local to me? I’m near Wellingborough...

Long story short, I had one of these (same finish, humbuckers but the headstock insert had popped out) when I was 12ish and traded it against a pink sparkle Epiphone at Carlsbro/Academy of sound in Leicester, I’m now 35 and the decision still haunts me. So I’m gutted this guitar is a dog, had my heart set on getting one again. Never mind eh?

JezWynd

I had a white Hayman 2020 in the 70's/80's and I could never get that to intonate properly. Exactly as you say: cowboy chords okay, step out of those and it sounded horrible. Only good point was its incredibly light weight but if you gave it a hard stare it would dent.

TheBigDipper

Didn't Shergold take the design over and start producing them? I had a mate (we're talking late '70s) with a Hayman 40-40 bass and he loved it. Never tried a 6 string, though.

guitars4you

TheBigDipper said:

Didn't Shergold take the design over and start producing them? I had a mate (we're talking late '70s) with a Hayman 40-40 bass and he loved it. Never tried a 6 string, though.

Yes Jack Goulder built for Burns, then Hayman, then Shergold - Shergold was his company and distributed by Barnes and Mullins - Where as with Burns/Hayman he was just one part of the chain - He was employed by Burns, but left and set up his own company (Shergold/Woodcraft) which in turn built the Hayman Guitars for Ivor Arbiter - Hayman Guitars and Drums were distributed by Dallas/Arbiter and that will be familiar to some who recall they became the distributors for Fender in the days of CBS - CBS also owned/built and distributed Rogers Drums along with Fender, so this caused a conflict of interest between CBS and Arbiter, regarding funding and commitment - So Hayman became deceased , both drums and guitars - This led to Jack going solo, with help from Barnes and Mullins, to start the Shergold Guitar Company - Yes the design, build, tooling etc is similar/same

Winny_Pooh

Does the bridge need to go away from or closer to the nut? I'd look to adjust the holes on the metal plate so they still have the same entry on the body and move the bridge. 

WezV

I think I would just stick a different bridge on it, like the schaller 3D-6 top loader

ICBM

Which way does the bridge need to move? Could you do it by modifying the neck or pocket instead?

WezV

Another option might be to replace the bridge plate for one drilled for a more reliable bridge in the right place... Should be room without messing with string holes

impmann

@longshins yes, just up the road - just South of Kettering 

Sadly, I am financially embarrassed so I have to bow out of a deal.

Im a huge fan of all Shergold made guitars and am sure the issues can be solved .

longshins

impmann said:

@longshins yes, just up the road - just South of Kettering 

Sadly, I am financially embarrassed so I have to bow out of a deal.

Im a huge fan of all Shergold made guitars and am sure the issues can be solved .

If I manage to get it I’m more than happy for you to have a go

guitars4you

Going to have another look again tomorrow and look at the bridge  It needs to move 1-2mm away from the bridge pick-up

Thought about moving the neck 1 or 2 mm away from the neck pick-up but worried about a gap - Would need to plug, then re-drill existing holes on body/neck

So will have another look tomorrow

Don't really want to change the bridge assembly as will take away some of the guitars integrity/character - I know it is not a true vintage Axe, but still want to retain its integrity

To be honest I've not looked at different bridge options and see it as a last resort

Will update further guys

Thanks for comments

ICBM

Having looked at some clearer pics, I would redrill the bridge baseplate (and body if the posts go down into it) to move the top section further back - it will cover the old holes.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

Having looked at some clearer pics, I would redrill the bridge baseplate (and body if the posts go down into it) to move the top section further back - it will cover the old holes.

I've had the same tip elsewhere, so will look at it again in the morning - Thanks for the advise 

impmann

The bridge top plate is drilled and tapped. I think (from memory) there’s a corresponding drilling in the body for the nose of the machine screw to poke through.

impmann

Just a thought... the bridge is fitted the right way round? Check the picture on this page....

https://www.shergold.co.uk/hwbridges.html

I have seen one fitted wrongly in the in the past which means the individual saddle ‘hinges’ were back to front giving insufficient adjustment 

guitars4you

^^^^^^ - thanks for comments tip of - Will get it back on the bench later today for a closer inspection and report accordingly

HarrySeven

@guitars4you said:

The issue is primarily tuning and effectively results from the day it was first built/assembled.

Yup. I've found the same thing with Hayman guitars in the past - variable QC to say the least!

I too have been fancying another recently.