help me to start learning to improvise.

Elx

I said clever because you have a very interesting style, and since I am not a native speaker of English I have to stop and think and read again and that's when I think, well, this bloke sounds very clever

frankus

I am a native speaker - your style is very fluent, so I don't feel foolish for not knowing that

I can't write in any other languages (my Grandad used to know 5 languages for his job) so I'm in awe of anyone who knows another language fluently.

As for reading again, it's a depressing fact, but I find if I'm reading some books I have to keep rereading parts again and again... then reread the book again and again - it's taken me a very long time to question the virtue of speed reading, or reading a book once.. it's really hard to get all of a totally different perspective...

tell ya what, it's Friday - I'll shut up now! My gift to you

Elx

Nah, let's continue...

Here's another idea...Someone once said, it's not about what you can do on the guitar, it's about what you can come up with. Well, my problem is I can do a lot, but I cannot really come up with anything I like....

frankus

That's an interesting one.

As I understand it, there's a few ways of viewing that "do you not like it because you came up with it?", "do you not like it because it's not had time to become familiar and be refined?", "do other people not like it?"..

The first seems silly - but sometimes I think somethings sounds crap because it only came from me.
Sometimes a thing sounds great till I realised it's snuck from someone else (then I think they still own it).
Some stuff I drop - partly because it's mine... but if you look at most of the catchiest stuff - it was bounced around a few musicians to get refined.
Some times the stuff I hate something for (even prior ownership) aren't recognised by others (sometimes even the prior owner!)

It ain't what ya do it's the way that you do it ...

In improvisation there's a lot to be said for limiting - ie limiting melodic options - stick to 4 notes for an entire solo - it creates ideas.
I suspect the same can be said of techniques and definitely rhythm - limited rhythms make music.

the fewer techniques you've got to pick from the more fun and exploration you do with those and that theme makes the music created more cohesive...

my kids have millions of toys and they don't settle to one... at their age I had lego and I played for hours on end... less is often more.

Most of my understanding about playing comes from the IGF course on Jazz and playing there... and a lot of wasted time prior to that... which I'm very keen to help others avoid.

Dario Cortese tells us to smile on stage and look at the audience... it works to calm us down and get good thoughts.
Helping people get on stage and off stage on the last night and jam nights I saw a lot of disappointment ... and almost all of it came from expectations being too high... if the audience is entertained that's good enough. "perfect is the enemy of good..." getting a cheer or some claps is easier than blowing everyone away - it allows you to work on your craft..

Sonny Rollins says "you've no time to think when you're playing music" so the trick is to not think... learn a  load of licks... devise a load of licks get so familliar with them you're bored of them ... then jam and they'll break into parts and join with others the more you relax.

I am still learning it's nothing to do with range and everything to do with familiarity... like Wes Montgomery knowing 80 chords but all the uses of them... I don't think Ted Greene really did single note soloing as it all comes from his chord knowledge.... and then you've the Bruce Lee comment: I don't fear the man who's practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.

It's really hard to know what to specialise in

Elx

So true...I jam with my brother from time to time, when I go home for a holiday. The kid is very talented and natural, but never bothered to practice. He says I can't be bothered to practice the guitar, I could be reading something in the meantime (he's a professor of history). But! Those few licks that he knows he explores in a very musical and lyrical way, and he enjoys it, and you can hear it! He keeps teasing me, you and your books and magazines and constant practicing, listen to this! And it really sounds good. Very limited technically, yet genuine in a way. He stays in his comfort zone and explores it, and being talented he does it in a very interesting and musical way. I try to respond by playing something flashy (another problem I have, I always feel like I need to impress when I play) and it can be very frustrating. Maybe I'm being too modest, but I prefer his phrasing to mine...well, at least when we wank in the pentatonic scale , as anything more advanced is Chinese to him (even though the Chinese love the pentatonics too ). But then again, BB King is the same. There's a video on youtube when a guy interviewing him asks him if he still practices these days, and BB says, yes, but not too much and then goes on to shows how he practices, and to me it was one of the funniest things I've seen on Youtube. The guy cannot play a major scale at 35 bpm without making a mistake, the technique is all wrong...Yet, this is BB King we' re talking about, a guy who's touched so many hearts during his career...and this is the only thing that matters. And he's happy with what he does and how he does it. My problem is, I don't think I will ever be happy, music is a constant struggle to me, a constant journey towards perfection that will never come...

frankus

I wonder if he was lying and just saying what he thought people wanted to hear.

Brothers!

I live in the same town as Guthrie and Seth Govan and used to watch them play at the Bassment every Thursday.. for about 6 years...

In a family, everyone has to be unique, Guthrie plays loads of notes and Seth plays fewer and rumblier notes - on the occasion Seth starts playing fast people are wowed ... he spends minutes drawing them in... then when lets rip, he doesn't sound like a bass player playing fast... he sounds like 2 bass players!

I don't like playing with my brothers too much as I find it skews my playing to what they expect ...

but yeah, other people's stuff sounds better - I suspect because it's fresh.

When I've been to open mic sessions I've usually been intimidated by the level of ability... but returning the next time I realise that's their repertoire - few people are playing a massive range of tunes to a high ability... and after a turns the music is boring.

Elx

I had no idea Guthrie had a brother! One Govan was enough I thought... I like Guthrie, he's a character...and when you're a character, everything is easier...

frankus

Yep Seth is a brilliant guitarist also and often a bass player -- was my bass teacher for a while (too short a while -- was goign through a funny patch)

Georgie

I am in the same position, my inspiration is Dave Gilmour and I can sit for hours trying to work through his solos. When I am first learning they don't sound great and I feel that my playing is totally different to his - until! You put some meaty effects pedals on and it brings life to the guitar the moment I started playing on the turning away solo at a good volume with effects the hairs on the back of my neck stood up.

A good guitar teacher is also good. Mine had a happy wave of joy go over him when I used the code words 'i want to learn how to improvise'! He plays a rhythm and then will talk me through what I am doing and gives me ideas.

I practice for hours on my days off and have only been playing for just less than a year, I could say it is an addiction but the more I learn the more doorways open and then it becomes more exciting!
I am a very excitable, enthusiastic person, don't know what you are all like, but perhaps you need to think back to your original goals for learning. You don't get in a car without a destination! When was the last time you got really excited about your progress? Maybe strip everything back and then give yourself a timed achievable goal, eg by tomorrow I need to be able to recite the first pentatonic position in E ( my tutor gave me e first) I.e

03
02
02
02
03
03

then tomorrow learn the second position etc.

Also be able to play them and work through all 5 positions. Once you have done this think through some riffs and solos you already know in the key of e and you will see how it all fits in.

My teacher says that most famous guitarists will have there own favourite parts they like then they just improvise a run to that part of the neck to then play 'the old faithful'.

The main thing is to get back that excitement that spurred you on to get as far as you are now.

Phil_aka_Pip

Learning penatonics is a good start. As well as playing then with "straight" timing, also try swung quavers: a pair of swung quavers for each note, then go up/down the scale in swung quavers but each note has to be the next one in the scale ... have fun making up riffs. Then if you done that in one position, try another position but still in the same key.

It's fun!

EDIT: This was one of my favourites. Each pair of notes is a pair of swung quavers.

R R, b3 4, 5 5, b7 R

GuyBoden

Improvisation.

Hear a line in your mind and try to play it. (Start simply.)
Repeat this until you can play these lines without thinking.
Listen to a song. Hear a line in your mind that fits the music and try to play it. (Start simply.)
Repeat this until you can play these lines with a song without thinking.

Repeat this process, while increasing the complexity of the song.


Scales, arps, patterns etc are only the mechanics of the guitar, music is what you need to create.


P.S. Don't listen to good Jazz players, they are too good at improvisation and will scare you, because improvising is all they do.

Phil_aka_Pip

GuyBoden said:

Scales, arps, patterns etc are only the mechanics of the guitar, music is what you need to create.

He's right, but if you don't have these mechanics you will find it hard to create stuff that other people can relate to, because these things are patterns, hence even if assembled "randomly" there will be elements which get repeated, and people tend to relate to patterns ie things which have repeated elements in them.

try improvising a short story in a language without learning that language first

frankus

easy - use gestures.

scales are not a language any more than the alphabet is.

the problem with any system is that it has it's limitations, arpeggios are nothing more than scales played every other note... which gives harmony in thirds... chords are simply short-hand for harmonies (often in thirds but more interestingly in fouths).

the more traditions and expectations that brew up around any art - the more that art becomes a craft, more focussed on reproduction than originating. that's fine for most people... but be honest, it's not improvisation either.

Jimmy Bruno calls scales "tone selections" - they're a pallet, he avoids scales (from scala) because they describe ascents and descents between root nodes. Wayne Krantz calls them functions and remembers them as chords rather than sequences (easier to remember a theme).

I think McLauglin, Wooten, Di Meola and a few others ditched these arbitrary sub-divisions and just went for the chromatic... wanna play the lydian mode and then use a flat seventh? okay bubba no sweat no need to apply for a license to use the lydian dominant, you'll need a license to use the melodic minor first... hmm have you played two dominant chords a semi-tone apart before? you'll need a license for that too.

There are 3 types of chord and 12 notes - how hard do you need to make it?

Phil_aka_Pip

@frankus don't try to tell me that you can tell a story with no more than gestures. It would be very basic. You can make yourself understood because you know how to use english. You can spell, you know which letters to type or you can write them by hand, you understand the grammar.  At the very basic level you have some kind of physical technique whether it be typing or manipulating a writing instrument. And before you say thats not necessary look at a differently-abled person using a stick in their mouth, its still a technique they need to learn somehow. Without some kind of technique you will not express anything other than incompetence.

I quite understand your zen-influenced thinking that basic musical techniques are not "everything", but you do beginners no favours if you try to dissuade them from learning the basics. You're letting them think they can run before they can walk.

GuyBoden

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@frankus don't try to tell me that you can tell a story with no more than gestures. It would be very basic. You can make yourself understood because you know how to use english. You can spell, you know which letters to type or you can write them by hand, you understand the grammar.  At the very basic level you have some kind of physical technique whether it be typing or manipulating a writing instrument. And before you say thats not necessary look at a differently-abled person using a stick in their mouth, its still a technique they need to learn somehow. Without some kind of technique you will not express anything other than incompetence.

I quite understand your zen-influenced thinking that basic musical techniques are not "everything", but you do beginners no favours if you try to dissuade them from learning the basics. You're letting them think they can run before they can walk.

If this thread is "learning to improvise", I'm assuming that the mechanics of the guitar, fretboard mapping, arps, chords, scales etc, have already been learned many, many years ago, so you can concentrate on making music.

frankus

All the grammar present in my writing style comes from one place - listening to the spoken words of very articulate people, repeating it, exploring it and reapplying it.

Did you learn to spell first or did you pick up the language by interacting with people?

For me, spelling and punctuation followed on as they were required... it's the decade or so of talking on forums that has created my use of punctuation - lessons that involve emotion are the quickest ways to learn... so make mistakes and feel the burn, or repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat...

I prefer living with my emotions and using them to comprehend stuff.... and yet, ironically I'm constantly accused of being intellectual

It's always been my experience that the best musicians have a hell of a lot of playing experience. That's the constant - the rest is the 5% icing on top.

When people say they need to learn arpeggios, I wonder if they need arpeggios really or they just feel humbled by some guitarist (talking) and have heard the word arpeggios.

All the best programmers I've met have years and years experience at programming - at that point the language and the operating system are largely irrelevant... the programmers who demand it be written in a language or work with an IDE, or using a development ideology/methodology are the shaky unreliable ones who cannot be counted on when the shit hits the fan.

Phil_aka_Pip

GuyBoden said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@frankus don't try to tell me that you can tell a story with no more than gestures. It would be very basic. You can make yourself understood because you know how to use english. You can spell, you know which letters to type or you can write them by hand, you understand the grammar.  At the very basic level you have some kind of physical technique whether it be typing or manipulating a writing instrument. And before you say thats not necessary look at a differently-abled person using a stick in their mouth, its still a technique they need to learn somehow. Without some kind of technique you will not express anything other than incompetence.

I quite understand your zen-influenced thinking that basic musical techniques are not "everything", but you do beginners no favours if you try to dissuade them from learning the basics. You're letting them think they can run before they can walk.

If this thread is "learning to improvise", I'm assuming that the mechanics of the guitar, fretboard mapping, arps, chords, scales etc, have already been learned many, many years ago, so you can concentrate on making music.

well no disrespect intended to "Georgie" above, but it would seem that (s)he is not in that position, having been playing for less than a year. It was to such a person that I suggested learning to play around with pentatonics.

@frankus has piled in with his usual zen-style don't learn any basics or rudiments, and the same old argument ensues. he's right that these things are not the be all and and all of music, but it has to be the devil's own lie that arps/scales cannot train the fingers to move, or that they are useless in giving people techniques by which they might express themselves ... I don't even mind if they are viewed purely as an observation of what a lot of other people play so we observe, analyse, distil, and come up with this abstraction which we call an arpeggio or a scale, but to dissuade beginners from acquiring them is pernicious abuse of the beginner

frankus

Can we drop the name-calling? it's not zen-style.

I'm not saying don't learn it - I'm saying it plays a very limited role.

devils own lie -- ffs listen to yourself!

learning to transcribe your favourite pieces of music will give you all the technique and musicality you need, it just doesn't give you the labels to communicate with other players.

listening to music, transcribing and repertoire outstrip the importance of building blocks by several order of magnitude of orders of magnitude.

I've met you and the idea that your ability to get up and play originated from basics doesn't fit with the person I met - I think you picked that stuff up much much later and that is why it works for you. I could be wrong... it's got to happen some time, but I'm having a hard time believing all this name calling and accusations "pernicious abuse" (.. really?) would ever come from a person simply expressing how they've learnt (their experience of a life in music) - it's far far more likely to come from a person defending a belief - they're the people who decry, name-call, mud sling and call foul play..

so which is it?

viz

The way I learned music was in the classical tradition, keeping the 3 plates of practice, performance and theory spinning at equal speeds through the grades system. That level-pegging approach worked for me and I am happy with where it brought me. I'm glad I learned some theory and I've enjoyed translating the stuff that resonated with me to the guitar. I'm still learning lots of theory and meanwhile I find improvisation quite a natural activity (albeit within my capabilities and comfort zones). But I do imagine classical training could be a hindrance to improvising; a bit like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - maybe the more honed as a classical performer and sight-reader you become, the less leaning you may have towards improvisation. But obviously many have managed both, and obviously all the great composers were all brilliant instrumentalists too. They couldn't have written what they did without deep understanding of musical theory and instrumental knowledge. But I definitely wouldn't say one needed training in the classical tradition to be able to improvise.

Phil_aka_Pip

frankus said:

Can we drop the name-calling? it's not zen-style.

I'm not saying don't learn it - I'm saying it plays a very limited role.

devils own lie -- ffs listen to yourself!

learning to transcribe your favourite pieces of music will give you all the technique and musicality you need, it just doesn't give you the labels to communicate with other players.

listening to music, transcribing and repertoire outstrip the importance of building blocks by several order of magnitude of orders of magnitude.

I've met you and the idea that your ability to get up and play originated from basics doesn't fit with the person I met - I think you picked that stuff up much much later and that is why it works for you. I could be wrong... it's got to happen some time, but I'm having a hard time believing all this name calling and accusations "pernicious abuse" (.. really?) would ever come from a person simply expressing how they've learnt (their experience of a life in music) - it's far far more likely to come from a person defending a belief - they're the people who decry, name-call, mud sling and call foul play..

so which is it?

I didn't intend "name-calling", I'm somewhat sorry that you interpreted it that way.

In the grand scheme of things, the basics are just that, an anthill on the foothills of a huge mountain. However I have to say that you came across to me as decrying the basics, which I saw as highly detrimental to the development of a beginner.

I do have some ability to play by ear, but like @viz I also learned classical arpeggios & scales from an early age, so I can't give you a definitive answer as to whether I'd be able to play by ear without having learned them. I will say though that people with some feel for music and ability at it but who haven't learned such things seem to have difficulty in picking up riffs & phrases that I might play to them, they're more interested in copying which strings/frets I put my fingers on. Hence I think anyone who dissuades a beginner from acquiring these things does them a great disservice. You may not feel that you were doing such a thing but it seemed to me that you were, and I think it is very wrong, hence I used strong terminology.