Modelling vs valve - the never ending battle

Alfi27

Hi guys,

First of all, this is not supposed to be a flamestarter topic, it's a reference to my personal never ending indecision between the two.

I have been through a lot, and I mean a LOT of gear... All of the well known modellers including the Fractal AX8, Line 6 Helix, Atomic Amplifire and the Kemper (the undisputed king of modelled amp tones, fx is debatable...). It's just the Kemper I have been able to keep for a longer period of time.

As great as the Kemper is I have always gone back to valve amps for various reasons, it darkens the tone of my guitars with a weird default lowpass filter that is set too low and affects everything. Trying to lowpass the Kemper where I usually would lowpass a real valve amp in Logic, it doesn't make any difference. It also has a certain similarity between all the profiles, like the profiling process is just applying some sort of EQ IR to the same fundamental amp model. Also, sometimes when I made profiles the end result sounded nowhere near the source, but other times it sounded really close (as it should). As I don't really use loads of different sounds that is a minor issue, but it's an interesting point nevertheless. All of these things are negligible at best in a live setting, but not in the studio. 

Over to valve amps, a good old JCM800 is my ideal amp, period. I love the no nonsense, bare boned simplicity of it and how I can just dial it in and get everything I need from my guitar's controls and maybe a couple of pedals. I just dial it in and play, and grin like a f****** idiot. With my Suhr Reactive Load I keep every knob on the amp at the same place except the master volume, which is located some place between 6 and 10 depending on how much drive and sag I want. Tonewise it doesn't get any better than that (for me) and few things will even match or compare to it, but it comes with its issues. First of all it's heavy as hell, there is no way I can carry it to a venue without getting an Uber (I don't have a car). Secondly, it's fairly unreliable and the output transformer decided to take a break the other day. Apparently it's just a wire that is poorly connected (on the OT side), but the amp tech struggles to find it and I suspect that he will end up just replacing it because it will be more cost effective than trying to locate that wire forever. To say that this is not my first issue with valve amps is an understatement, and has usually been a quite major reason for converting to modelling. 

I feel like I'm sitting on the answer to this myself, but I wanted to seek out experiences from people (currently and previously) in the same situation. At this particular moment I can't afford having both a Kemper and the 800, especially if the repair costs end up really expensive. My initial plan was to wait until the summer and get some money earned up (I'm currently a student), keeping the 800 and just getting a Kemper which at this point is probably still plan number one, but if the amp acts up again after I get it back, that will most likely change... 

What do you guys think? Anyone who's kept the Kemper for a long period of time and been completely cured for valve amp GAS (so far)? 

martinw

Alfi27 said:

Secondly, it's fairly unreliable and the output transformer decided to take a break the other day. Apparently it's just a wire that is poorly connected (on the OT side), but the amp tech struggles to find it and I suspect that he will end up just replacing it because it will be more cost effective than trying to locate that wire forever. To say that this is not my first issue with valve amps is an understatement, and has usually been a quite major reason for converting to modelling. 

That doesn't sound right.

There aren't many wires associated with the OT, so it shouldn't be difficult for a good tech to track down the problem and fix it for good.

It sounds like you've taken the amp to the tech more than once for the same issue?

Replacing a serviceable OT because you can't find a loose connection is not the way to go.

There's no reason why a JCM800 shouldn't be a reliable amp and give years of good service, once properly sorted.

Alfi27

He might have simplified the issue for me because I'm a noob, I know that he knows his stuff and is a well respected amp tech. This is the first time he is looking at this particular amp, but I have brought other similar amps (2203 and 1987x) to him before. I have heard that JCM800s are usually regarded as reliable, but when stuff like this happen I get scared and almost start question my pathway in life; "would this have happened if I didn't eat that last cookie last night?" 

Also, I know that running an amp cooking all the time with the Suhr Reactive Load doesn't exactly help and make things less prone to failure, but if I can't run a valve amp like that there is simply no reason for having a valve amp for me, because that's the way it sounds the best. 

ICBM

JCM800s, particularly the earlier ones with the PCB not mounted on the pots, are some of the best-made and most reliable valve amps that exist. There are only four wires on the output side of the OT, so unless the problem is internal to the transformer winding itself it is certainly not necessary to replace it. If it's not one of the solder connections on the impedance selector switch or the jacks then it could be just the switch that needs replacing.

I also tend to think that even if a valve amp doesn't sound as good not fully cranked as it does cranked, as long as it still sounds better than any other way of achieving the same sound then it doesn't matter. I'm not personally a fan of running them flat-out anyway, I think they sound better rolled back a little, and a good load is no worse for them than a cabinet like that. Obviously valves wear out and can fail, but that's true of any valve amp. I just had to replace one in a friend's amp last night, and I can guarantee it's never been driven hard.

I don't currently use a valve amp myself by the way, so that's not a snobbery point of view.

Alfi27

It's a 1981 2204, so everything is hard wired. The OT has already been replaced some time ago, so it's weird that it's acting up. Like I said I'm not able to elaborate on what the exact issue is, but I know it's something with the OT. 

Yeah I rarely run it flat out, but the master has to be at 6 at least. This is with the SRL though, for some reason amps that are usually not that dependent on power amp drive does not sound good at lower master volume levels through a load box. It's really weird, but the JCM800s are actually the only amps that I can run below 8 on the master volume while still sounding great. That being said, 6 on the master volume is far past power amp clipping anyway so in theory the OT shouldn't take any more beatings from dialing it up even more. 

I keep coming back to the fact that they made non master volume JCM800s as well, that used the same transformers and very similar circuits and they essentially run the master volume at 10 all the time, which the transformers are (or should be) designed to handle. 

Fez

I haven't ventured into using modeling live yet but I am quite happy using Amplitube for recording. One thing about valve amps is they are repairable, I am not sure about the modelling units like Helix, Kemper et al can they be repaired if a chip fails? However that should be a rare occurrence.

skullfunkerry

When I was gigging I used a Dark Terror and it sounded wonderful... A couple of years down the line, it's long gone but I always said if I was gigging again I'd buy another one... I used my Katana for a jam with the drummer last week and it sounded that good that I don't think I'd bother spending all that money again now. Added bonus for me is that I can use the Katana for recording and I don't need to use any modelling software other than what's in the amp... so to answer your original question, I haven't got a Kemper (I'm kind of scared to try one tbh!), but I'd say I'm cured of valve amp GAS for the time being

rico

All Kempers I’ve ever heard live just sound the same. High gain, super compressed and dull. 

57Deluxe

olafgarten

57Deluxe said:

I don't quite understand this image, if you can model the response of 4 tubes using that much code, you are a master of code golf!