mid 60's 335 - trapeze v stop tail

darcym

I have a mid 60's 335 (66 I think from memory but could be as late as 68) which is all original, even to the saddles, its got a few knocks and it's checked as you'd expect for a guitar of this age, but it's pretty great condition, original PAF etc etc.

Had this guitar for a long long time now, and it's just amazing, I tried loads and this one was a clear winner, don't know why, but it just sounded the best out of about 10 ranging from 64 to 69 models I tried.

I have one problem with this guitar any despite how good it is, over the passage of time is starting to annoy me a little, and I knew it would before I bought it, however....because it was such as clear winner in terms of sound I made a decision to ignore it.

The tail part of the bridge is the trapeze style bridge, I find this annoying for a few reasons

1.) visually - I'm not a huge fan of it visually, but I don't really care about this, it's annoyance rather than a problem

2.) stability this is a bit of an odd one as I'd expect it to be consistent, but it's not, but it's more obvious since I put 12's on it as this just sounds amazing with 11's or above on it. The guitar stays in tune, loads of bending..rock solid, rock solid, then all of a sudden after a bend goes out of tune, I've had the machine heads checked and they are rock solid, and from reading on the internet and talking to a few vintage experts, this is just one of the issues of the trapeze unit moving a little

3.) stringing the guitar, it's not really a big deal, but it is a little bit more fiddly with a tail that is basically rigidly floating,

I'm considering getting the tail converted to a stop tail 63~style. I'm talking top drawer luthier used to dealing with vintage instruments, not a loon with a hammer.

my fears

1.) Value - not hugely bothered by this as it's not a for sale guitar and I see varying options on prices, some people pay more for this conversation already done as it fixes the above problem, some people pay less as it's no longer all original so depends who you are selling to

2.) sound, my gut tells me the reason this guitar was the one was just due to the wood, the pickups, how it had aged and worn in, maybe higher quality control at the time, not "the bridge" but for the more educated how likely is that tail to make an impact to the sound and feel.

I'm really torn with this as the guitar sounds and plays amazing, but occasionally gets annoying both from a use point of view, and visually.

I'd love to hear some views / advice and thoughts in general on this.

gringopig

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John_P

I’d agree about giving it a lot of thought first - I really like the look of the trapeze tailpiece (I like a bigsby as well though!).  
Imo it would be a shame to change it and I wonder if they are any ways to get better tuning stability or is it really just down to having the stop tail mod done.    

darcym

that's what it's all about been pondering this for a few years, not got it done to date, thought I'd widen the net to some differing views.

Teyeplayer

I would have thought the change of bridge would change the tone. The method, angle and position of the transfer of string vibration to the body would alter and to my mind the very physics of the instrument are therefore likely to change as a result.

ICBM

Personally I would put a Bigsby B7 on it .

But otherwise, what gringopig said - there's nothing wrong with it, if there are tuning issues it will be due to something like the ball end having not seated itself perfectly tightly against the back of the tailpiece when restringing. The tailpiece itself cannot move enough to suddenly make a string go flat when you bend a note.

Also, I have never seen a single stoptail-converted with the stoptail in exactly the right place, ever. I don't know why it seems to be so hard to get right, but if it isn't the whole guitar looks wrong and is then extremely difficult to correct. The trapeze version is rarer, looks more visually balanced, and sounds much more distinctively 'semi-acoustic' compared to the stoptail version which is closer to a Les Paul.

JezWynd

Had this guitar for a long long time now, and it's just amazing...
Sounds like you should leave it alone. Changing something so fundamental to its personality is possibly going to f**k it up.

darcym

all solid input, thank you

guitars4you

ICBM said:

Personally I would put a Bigsby B7 on it .

But otherwise, what gringopig said - there's nothing wrong with it, if there are tuning issues it will be due to something like the ball end having not seated itself perfectly tightly against the back of the tailpiece when restringing. The tailpiece itself cannot move enough to suddenly make a string go flat when you bend a note.

Also, I have never seen a single stoptail-converted with the stoptail in exactly the right place, ever. I don't know why it seems to be so hard to get right, but if it isn't the whole guitar looks wrong and is then extremely difficult to correct. The trapeze version is rarer, looks more visually balanced, and sounds much more distinctively 'semi-acoustic' compared to the stoptail version which is closer to a Les Paul.

There is some discussion somewhere about Larry Carlton's 335 with such a mod and the stop tail piece in the wrong place - The exact dimensions of this mod were then copied when R Ford converted his Epiphone Riviera to a stop tail, for whatever reason that might be  Believe the same tech did both

Normally any such change will devalue the guitar by some degree or other - Yet on a 335 of this era, if done well, then it has less impact on the value, as many players prefer such a mod  - It is certainly not seen as such a negative, compared to other mods - Would it stop me buying a modified 335, assuming it is a good example regards feel, playability, tone, then I would not see it as a hindrance or a negative feature - Yet I own a 67 Epiphone Riviera (like Robben Ford's) with a trapeze and I won't change it - Maybe if it was my main guitar and I'm gigging as a pro, then maybe I'd do the work, but for me as a total 'hobbyist' then no need to change the guitars integrity, as other than a pro refret, the guitar is 100%

Evilmags

Don't mess would be my call. A very permanent mod...

Misty

I love 335s, and have owned my '64 for probably 15 years, but I agree with the above, leave yours as it was meant to be. Changing to a stop tail might change the tone, or it might not, it's a gamble. It probably would change the feel, the string tension will probably feel a little different, and bending could be easier. I once owned a '72 335 which I had converted to a stop tail, it was done well and I was fussy about getting it in the right place; I don't remember it changing the tone but the feel was improved a bit. It didn't really make the guitar any better as an instrument though, and I sold it. Much later I bought a '67 with the trapeze. I found that string bending felt a bit awkward and sometimes the string would pop out of the slot in the bridge saddle, due to the shallower break angle over the saddle. By then I had developed an aversion to modding guitars structurally, and I sold it rather than have a stop tail installed. So there could be advantages with having it converted, but there's no guarantee apart from devaluing the guitar, and changing the way it's been for the last 52 years. I know if I did it I'd later regret it.

Jimbro66

My feelings are along the lines of others expressed above.

I played a 1963 ES-335 for a number of years. On one occasion I was able to play, unamplified, a later sixties 335 with trapeze tailpiece. What was immediately noticeable was the narrower neck. Other than that, the strings felt slightly 'looser' for the same gauge set and needed to be bent very slightly more for the same pitch shift. When strumming acoustically there was also a slight awareness of the strings behind the bridge ringing. In all these aspects I stress slight. Really, acoustically, the differences were pretty small. The neck width really the only noticeable change.

I have often read that the the stop tailpiece gives 'more tone' (?) and sustain. There can be few people who have played more 60s 335s than Charlie Gelber and his opinion is that it makes little difference.

The Larry Carlton model has the stop tailpiece farther back (as does Larry's own conversion from trapeze) but, as ICBM says, it looks somehow 'wrong'. Ironically it makes the stop tailpiece behave somewhat like the trapeze, as does top-wrapping a stop tail to a much lesser extent.

If your 335 sounds and plays great @darcym is it worth paying a lot of money to risk loosing that? There might be slight tuning issues from the trapeze* but if you have ever played a vintage Gretsch with floating bridge it might put a bit of perspective on your problem

* As others have said above, check the nut first. If you have changed to heavier string gauges they may well be binding slightly in a the nut slots and need a bit of fettling with nut files. They may have been cut for 10s.

Whatever you decide, that's a lovely guitar to own and I do envy you. I had to sell my '63 and nowadays have an '82 which is very nice but without quite that same vintage vibe.

clarkefan

Imagine you did the mod and nothing *actually* changed in the sound.  

If you're anything like me you'd be driven mad for the next 20 years constantly thinking, it's different, it's the same, I've ruined it, WTF was I thinking, I'm an idiot, it's the same, no there's something gone from the high end, etc, etc.

There's no up side.  I'd enjoy it as it is

Misty

clarkefan said:

Imagine you did the mod and nothing *actually* changed in the sound.  

If you're anything like me you'd be driven mad for the next 20 years constantly thinking, it's different, it's the same, I've ruined it, WTF was I thinking, I'm an idiot, it's the same, no there's something gone from the high end, etc, etc.

There's no up side.  I'd enjoy it as it is

Very well put!

Phil_aka_Pip

I prefer a stop tailpiece, but if there's nowt wrong with the trapeze I'd just look for the guitar with a  stop tailpiece that floats my boat, keep it for a while and then ask if there is one I'd let go of and be happy keeping the other one. You may find you like both but for different reasons. GAS rules.

Do not under any circumstances muck about with a perfectly good guitar. IMO @ICBM is right*, your tuning issue can't be caused by the stop tailpiece.

EDIT but don't listen to him about the Bigsby. That would also spoil it AND give you tuning trubble

ICBM

Jimbro66 said:

* As others have said above, check the nut first. If you have changed to heavier string gauges they may well be binding slightly in a the nut slots and need a bit of fettling with nut files.

I missed the bit about string gauges but that’s important to check. If a string is binding in the nut it may well stay in tune until a bend pulls it far enough to stick as it goes back, leaving it flat.

I also forgot to say there is a golden rule for this sort of thing...

Never irreversibly modify a guitar you love - any change can only go one way. If you only like it a bit, or if you don’t really like it, then it may be worth the risk if you’re sure it will improve it.

richardhomer

ICBM said:
Never irreversibly modify a guitar you love - any change can only go one way. If you only like it a bit, or if you don’t really like it, then it may be worth the risk if you’re sure it will improve it.

Actually, never irreversibly modify a vintage guitar - it’ll always be worth more unmolested.

If it doesn’t suit, buy something that does - but don’t mess with history.

NorthernGooner

Having done this myself it's as well to remember that after removing the trapeze and converting to a hardtail the 
tell tale screw holes from the trapeze will always be there by the rear strap button.
You can have them filled and touched in but there will always be a visual reminder of the conversion.  It'll never look invisible without respraying.