Mid/high gain amp with useable cleans.

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  • webrthomsonwebrthomson Frets: 468
    edited January 9
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Diesel Herbert.. hugely versatile
    ^ this or a VH4 or if you can find one a Diesel Schmidt, class A, 3 channels (clean / mid to high gain / high gain) - great little amp but because as @Clarky says Diezel = metal they didnt really sell all that well. Totally overlooked

    I'd never played a Schmitt..
    that said, I've never played a bad Deizel so I'd expect it to be excellent

    Blisteringly good little amp - only issue due to it being class A it uses the same transformers as the VH4 and therefore is physically very heavy – the Paul is the newer version of it, not tried that but want to!

    Love Diezel, great amps, lovely people and some of the the best customer service ever

    EDIT - any of the Mark V Boogies are very good too - way easier that the Mark IV to dial in and much more logically laid out.

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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3076
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Diesel Herbert.. hugely versatile
    ^ this or a VH4 or if you can find one a Diesel Schmidt, class A, 3 channels (clean / mid to high gain / high gain) - great little amp but because as @Clarky says Diezel = metal they didnt really sell all that well. Totally overlooked

    I'd never played a Schmitt..
    that said, I've never played a bad Deizel so I'd expect it to be excellent

    Blisteringly good little amp - only issue due to it being class A it uses the same transformers as the VH4 and therefore is physically very heavy – the Paul is the newer version of it, not tried that but want to!

    Love Diezel, great amps, lovely people and some of the the best customer service ever

    EDIT - any of the Mark V Boogies are very good too - way easier that the Mark IV to dial in and much more logically laid out.

    I've not tried a real MkV. The only Boogies I've tried are a real MkIIC and the selection in the Axe-FX [which I'm told are extremely accurate models]. Personally I thought they were great, but still gravitated towards the Diezels and a handful of others [JCM800, 5150mk3, Tucana3, 70's Hiwatt, 5150 Block and a few others]
    the 5150 mk3 is another superb amp that is highly versatile [I combine it with the Herbert for my riffing tone and use it for my lead tone].
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2318
    Well I’m still weighing up all the options and but haven’t seen anything the looks better than the bogner xtc or a soldano decatone/hot rod+ tbh.    
    I’m wary of a lot of Mesa models as they can end up with too many options when I just want a few simple great sounding options.  I’m sure the diesels are great but not sure they are for me 

    I was sidetracked briefly with the thought of another jubilee or Danish Pete’s old Lonestar than Andertons have for sale but we shall see what comes up over the next few weeks.  
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3076
    John_P said:
    Well I’m still weighing up all the options and but haven’t seen anything the looks better than the bogner xtc or a soldano decatone/hot rod+ tbh.    
    I’m wary of a lot of Mesa models as they can end up with too many options when I just want a few simple great sounding options.  I’m sure the diesels are great but not sure they are for me 

    I was sidetracked briefly with the thought of another jubilee or Danish Pete’s old Lonestar than Andertons have for sale but we shall see what comes up over the next few weeks.  
    a thing I forgot to mention about the VH4 is that it's a 4 channel amp
    ch1 is clean and will get quite aggressive if you want it to
    ch2 is low to mid gain but it also has nice aggressive cleans
    ch3 is mid gain to the low end of hi gain [and is jaw dropping cos it's a mid gain tone with a hi gain feel]
    ch4 is full on hi gain

    a point to note is that each channel has it's own voicing, so it's not like is the same tone getting dirtier in each channel.
    They are all quite distinct and so have their own tonal charactericts.
    Additionally [if memory serves], each channel has it's own fx send / return and the master has another 2 of them; so you can drop different fx combinations on to each channel and have 'amp wide' fx too.
    The channels and loops are all switchable via MIDI so it's quite powerful and flexible

    and... there are 2 versions..
    the VH4 and the VH4S [which is the stereo version]
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • webrthomsonwebrthomson Frets: 468
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Diesel Herbert.. hugely versatile
    ^ this or a VH4 or if you can find one a Diesel Schmidt, class A, 3 channels (clean / mid to high gain / high gain) - great little amp but because as @Clarky says Diezel = metal they didnt really sell all that well. Totally overlooked

    I'd never played a Schmitt..
    that said, I've never played a bad Deizel so I'd expect it to be excellent

    Blisteringly good little amp - only issue due to it being class A it uses the same transformers as the VH4 and therefore is physically very heavy – the Paul is the newer version of it, not tried that but want to!

    Love Diezel, great amps, lovely people and some of the the best customer service ever

    EDIT - any of the Mark V Boogies are very good too - way easier that the Mark IV to dial in and much more logically laid out.

    I've not tried a real MkV. The only Boogies I've tried are a real MkIIC and the selection in the Axe-FX [which I'm told are extremely accurate models]. Personally I thought they were great, but still gravitated towards the Diezels and a handful of others [JCM800, 5150mk3, Tucana3, 70's Hiwatt, 5150 Block and a few others]
    the 5150 mk3 is another superb amp that is highly versatile [I combine it with the Herbert for my riffing tone and use it for my lead tone].
    I've owned pretty much every version of the mark series and while they are a bit of a pain to dial in (maybe that should read - not dialed in like a Marshall TBH) in a band context they are excellent. The diezels are also superb amps for everything not just metal. These days due to weight I tend to find myself using a slightly modded Mesa DC5 - loud enough and sounds like 2 channel Mark.

    Oddly I've never owned any version of 5150, thought I did have a SLO and I still have a dual recto 2 channel revision C which are all very close or so I'm told :)
    John_P said:
    Well I’m still weighing up all the options and but haven’t seen anything the looks better than the bogner xtc or a soldano decatone/hot rod+ tbh.    
    I’m wary of a lot of Mesa models as they can end up with too many options when I just want a few simple great sounding options.  I’m sure the diesels are great but not sure they are for me 

    I was sidetracked briefly with the thought of another jubilee or Danish Pete’s old Lonestar than Andertons have for sale but we shall see what comes up over the next few weeks.  
    I dont think you can go wrong with the XTC - thats a great amp! Didnt care for the Decatone, the controls are too restricting but you could normally get two good sounding channels, just not the third :(

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 38376

    Oddly I've never owned any version of 5150, thought I did have a SLO and I still have a dual recto 2 channel revision C which are all very close or so I'm told :)
    No, they’re not. Part of the Dual Rectifier preamp circuit is copied from the SLO, but only part - the rest of the amp is completely different - and the 5150 is not remotely similar to either of them, or any other of the amps which evolved from the 5F6-A Bassman via Marshall. The 5150 is actually quite unusual in amp history in that it appears to be more or less an original design, not directly copied or derived from anything else as far as I know.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3076
    ICBM said:

    Oddly I've never owned any version of 5150, thought I did have a SLO and I still have a dual recto 2 channel revision C which are all very close or so I'm told :)
    No, they’re not. Part of the Dual Rectifier preamp circuit is copied from the SLO, but only part - the rest of the amp is completely different - and the 5150 is not remotely similar to either of them, or any other of the amps which evolved from the 5F6-A Bassman via Marshall. The 5150 is actually quite unusual in amp history in that it appears to be more or less an original design, not directly copied or derived from anything else as far as I know.
    I don't know the history or technicals regarding the 5150 family
    but I have played through a real 5150 Block, 5153 and the Axe-FX modelled versions [which I use regular and know sound and feel pretty much the same as the real thing]..
    the 5150 Block seemed very single minded to me.. a very hi-gain amp.. does one thing brilliantly
    the 5153 has all the goodies of the 5150 plus very nice clean and mid-gain channels
    the unexpected surprise was the aggressive clean from the green channel..
    it's wonderful.. thick and full bodied with a nice edge in the highs

    if I were to ever switch from the Axe to a real amp, the contest would be between the VH4, Herbert and 5153
    it'd be a very tough choice but for flexibility I reckon the VH4 would win by a whisker
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2318
    Just our of interest,  has anyone tried the Bogner helios and compared it to any of the amps discussed like the 5153?
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  • The Friedman SS100. Awesome.
    Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life
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  • monkey42monkey42 Frets: 160
    The Friedman SS100. Awesome.
    Now you’re talking  ;)
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 896
    edited January 11
    Getting a bit old now but the JVM might be worth a look. Not as compact or flash as some of the other offerings but for the kinda tones you mention in the OP it's ideal - the overdrive orange channels are awesome. Can probably be had for dirt cheap 2nd hand too.
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  • rockmonsterrockmonster Frets: 438
    octatonic said:
    Check out the Suhr PT.
    This!
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4675
    TTBZ said:
    Getting a bit old now but the JVM might be worth a look. Not as compact or flash as some of the other offerings but for the kinda tones you mention in the OP it's ideal - the overdrive orange channels are awesome. Can probably be had for dirt cheap 2nd hand too.
    I have a VH4 and a JVM...the VH4 as you would expect pretty clearly out performs the JVM.

     I did use a JVM as my main ampt for about 8 years though so it cant be all bad...what I would say is that the cleans are marshall cleans rather than fendery. The crunch si obvisouly the standout tone, the high gain tones are good but the channels are pretty noisy with the gain ramped up. Also when you change channels theres a tiny dropout in the signal...most people dont notice it (in fact back on MR there was a huge thread where various owners said that the gap didnt exist on there JVM...but I since contacted the amp designer and confirmed it is intentional)....however it is one thing that irked me about the amp the whole time.

    Depending on what else you have though...I actually am currently using my other backup amp (VH4 needs to visit germans for a midi chip replacement) , a jet city JCA50h, this is a 2 channel amp that has a great distortion tone...however it doesnt really do cleans, at gig volume the clean channel always has a bit of crunch on it. However...if you ahve a modeller you can set it up in 4CM so you can effectively switch out the preamp stage for clean tones. I've done this with both my boss-gt10 and my helix so I can use the JCA50h crunch and distortion tonesa but use a vox or fender model for the cleans...it works really well and the JCA's are soooooo cheap.

    TTBZ is about right on the price though, I still have mine because I jsut can bear to take the depreciation hit on it after buying it full price new 

    :)
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4675
    Or just buy a VH4 cos they're basically the best amp.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4675
    Clarky said:

    ch3 is mid gain to the low end of hi gain [and is jaw dropping cos it's a mid gain tone with a hi gain feel]

    Thats a really good way of putting it. Channel 3 is just basically straight up voodoo.

    You can back the gain way off compared to toher hamps and still get squealy pinch harmonics and the low end of the VH4 is so good that chugging also comes across as heavier and more aggresive than objectively higher gain sounds.

    It's like it has all the charactersitics that you try to get by adding gain...but they're highlighted by the voicing so you dont actually need as much gain..which has the benefit of additional clarity and less noise.
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 896
    edited January 16
    @PolarityMan - can't argue with that! I'd agree the JVM excels at the modded Marshall tones and crunches.

    I've always wanted to try a Diezel and that description of channel 3 sounds like my idea of heaven for the sort of music I play - "mid gain with a high gain feel" sounds exactly what I want. Unfortunately out of reach for my budget but there's always the VH4 pedal I guess, wonder how close it can get.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 38376
    If anyone is interested, there's a second hand VH4 in Strung Out Guitars in Glasgow just now. £1699.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson
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  • BeexterBeexter Frets: 318
    Mesa Express 5.25+.
    Ridiculously versatile without being as complicated as the Mark series and plenty loud enough. Everything from rich cleans to high gain. The switchable EQ options are really useful and utterly brilliant. I've also got an AX8 and I don't find the Mesa lacking in the versatility department at all.
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  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 4794
    Beexter said:
    Mesa Express 5.25+.
    Ridiculously versatile without being as complicated as the Mark series and plenty loud enough. Everything from rich cleans to high gain. The switchable EQ options are really useful and utterly brilliant. I've also got an AX8 and I don't find the Mesa lacking in the versatility department at all.
    Totally agree. Vastly underrated amps these...
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3076
    Clarky said:

    ch3 is mid gain to the low end of hi gain [and is jaw dropping cos it's a mid gain tone with a hi gain feel]

    Thats a really good way of putting it. Channel 3 is just basically straight up voodoo.

    You can back the gain way off compared to toher hamps and still get squealy pinch harmonics and the low end of the VH4 is so good that chugging also comes across as heavier and more aggresive than objectively higher gain sounds.

    It's like it has all the charactersitics that you try to get by adding gain...but they're highlighted by the voicing so you dont actually need as much gain..which has the benefit of additional clarity and less noise.
    absolutely it's voodoo... lol..
    I've never known any amp to get that ch3 type of tone with that type of feel
    it's nothing short of miraculous 
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 4235
    Clarky said:
    ICBM said:

    Oddly I've never owned any version of 5150, thought I did have a SLO and I still have a dual recto 2 channel revision C which are all very close or so I'm told :)
    No, they’re not. Part of the Dual Rectifier preamp circuit is copied from the SLO, but only part - the rest of the amp is completely different - and the 5150 is not remotely similar to either of them, or any other of the amps which evolved from the 5F6-A Bassman via Marshall. The 5150 is actually quite unusual in amp history in that it appears to be more or less an original design, not directly copied or derived from anything else as far as I know.
    I don't know the history or technicals regarding the 5150 family
    but I have played through a real 5150 Block, 5153 and the Axe-FX modelled versions [which I use regular and know sound and feel pretty much the same as the real thing]..
    the 5150 Block seemed very single minded to me.. a very hi-gain amp.. does one thing brilliantly
    the 5153 has all the goodies of the 5150 plus very nice clean and mid-gain channels
    the unexpected surprise was the aggressive clean from the green channel..
    it's wonderful.. thick and full bodied with a nice edge in the highs

    if I were to ever switch from the Axe to a real amp, the contest would be between the VH4, Herbert and 5153
    it'd be a very tough choice but for flexibility I reckon the VH4 would win by a whisker
    Quick question? 

    The 5153 you are citing, is that by any chance the 50w that belonged to Drew and now resides in my sweaty mitts? 
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • @John_P ;I've just ordered a Victory Super Kraken, which by all accounts, sounds great in the demos and has some really nice cleans. The gain can go from mild crunch to massive high gain. So I'm really hopeful it fits the bill for my needs.
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2318
    @John_P ;I've just ordered a Victory Super Kraken, which by all accounts, sounds great in the demos and has some really nice cleans. The gain can go from mild crunch to massive high gain. So I'm really hopeful it fits the bill for my needs.
    Hope you enjoy it.    I’ve not been moved by the victory’s I’ve played so I ruled them out but plenty of other people seem to love them so hopefully It’ll be great.  

    I’m still very torn about what I want so I figured it’s best to pause until I see something that is right given I already have enough cracking amps I can use in the meantime.  

    A 3 channel Helios, an ecstacy and an slo are top of the tree if I could justify the outlay. 
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  • bazxkrbazxkr Frets: 418
    Check out the Engl E650 100w head....great cleans, classic rock right up to brutal metal if you need it. The Z5 pedal really brings it alive. Very versatile, you would be surprised, not what I would normally expect from an Engl
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  • webrthomsonwebrthomson Frets: 468
    @John_P ;I've just ordered a Victory Super Kraken, which by all accounts, sounds great in the demos and has some really nice cleans. The gain can go from mild crunch to massive high gain. So I'm really hopeful it fits the bill for my needs.
    @jonaththomas83 - tell us more when you get it, interesting in that amp :)
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  • EpsilonEpsilon Frets: 99
    I recently got hold a Bogner Goldfinger 45 which would probably fit into the mid- gain amp category (think boosted JCM800 levels of gain, but much nice sounding). Running an OD into on 80s mode will give you all the gain you could possibly want. The clean channel is not simply usable but exceptional in its own right.
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  • Jonathanthomas83Jonathanthomas83 Frets: 2248
    edited January 25
    @webrthomson I love it, great amp. I won't be keeping it though, not because it isn't great but because I can't pull myself away from my Kemper. As nice as it is owning a real amp, I am besotted with the Kemper and what it offers me. I have a profile of the old Kraken and it's not a million miles off what I'm hearing with this amp and a load box, so I don't really see any benefit...apart from the satisfaction of owning the real thing, and I'd like to think I'm past that now.

    No doubt in my mind, this is the amp for me though, high gain wise, sounds exactly like how I'd want it to sound...great! If I were to go back to amps, this would be in the arsenal!
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  • webrthomsonwebrthomson Frets: 468
    @webrthomson I love it, great amp. I won't be keeping it though, not because it isn't great but because I can't pull myself away from my Kemper. As nice as it is owning a real amp, I am besotted with the Kemper and what it offers me. I have a profile of the old Kraken and it's not a million miles off what I'm hearing with this amp and a load box, so I don't really see any benefit...apart from the satisfaction of owning the real thing, and I'd like to think I'm past that now.

    No doubt in my mind, this is the amp for me though, high gain wise, sounds exactly like how I'd want it to sound...great! If I were to go back to amps, this would be in the arsenal!
    Good to know - I'll need to try one out :)

    Do you have a powered Kemper or run a power amp with it?
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  • BowksBowks Frets: 145
    Marshall 6100LM.

    Crystal clean channel 1, channel 2 can offer crunch levels from the JTM45, 1959 and JCM800, then lots of gain on channel 3!

    It's what Satriani based the JSX on, but it's a Marshall, innit.
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  • Orange Rockerverb II or III. I've just decided to keep my II largely on the basis of the cleans
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