Les Paul Custom Mystery

BloodEagle

Hey all - I got this guitar a few months ago - what I know and have obsverved of it is as follows -

It has pickups specific to the year 1972, but is not necessarily from that year.

It is a 70s LP Custom, but does not have a volute, or any trace of one.

It has been checked out/stripped back by a well respected luthier and has seemingly never had a neck break, but has previously had the back of the headstock/upper neck refinished (is it possible that someone got rid of the volute?).

It used to belong to the vocalist from a popular E Midlands based band - I know this because I bought it from him

The serial number is either not original and not correct or both

The hardware/pickups all dates it to the early 70s

The pots (or two of them) seem to date from the early 60s?

It is a pancake body

It has a mahogany neck

It plays and sounds fantastic, but I wish I could narrow it down to what year it is.

Can any of the forums resident experts shed any light on this incredible mystery? Pics below

guitars4you

can you clarify a couple of points for me - The serial number is it 6 or 7 digit - should be 6 - looks 459390 - but looks a 1 between the 5 and 9 - might be a mark or light - If 459390 that looks like a 74 - But embossed pick up covers indicate 72 period - Could be fitted at a later date

Pots appear to be 134 6202 - is that correct - as that would indicate 1962 pots as you suggested

Mike58

Embossed pickup covers , reminds me , nose flattened  to the window of a music shop age 14,in 1972/3 looking in wonder at a black Les Paul Custom. It was about £400 in those days , which was a bloody fortune.
The guitar looks mega, real old school vibe, you are lucky.

BloodEagle

guitars4you said:

can you clarify a couple of points for me - The serial number is it 6 or 7 digit - should be 6 - looks 459390 - but looks a 1 between the 5 and 9 - might be a mark or light - If 459390 that looks like a 74 - But embossed pick up covers indicate 72 period - Could be fitted at a later date

Pots appear to be 134 6202 - is that correct - as that would indicate 1962 pots as you suggested

4519390 - yes, 7 digits. Minus the 4 it would be a 74, but with? Who knows. The guy who checked it out suggested that the serial numbers a pretty unreliable from this period anyway, and to go on features instead, given the lack of volute etc this still leaves me confused though ? Edit, yes pots are 1346202 

ICBM

I looks like a '72, but the serial number is clearly wrong and there's no Made In USA stamp either. If it hasn't just had the volute shaved off, could it be a complete re-neck? With the fingerboard and head veneer saved from the old one - the finish on the front of the head doesn't look right either. There's a white '74 LP Custom that our very own @FelineGuitars did like that for the chap in Judas Priest. What does it look like under the truss rod cover?

It also looks like the tune-o-matic has been filed down from underneath - to reduce its height? To compensate for a reduced neck angle? How high are the height wheels above the body when it's set up properly? It looks low in the pic but very hard to tell in a front-on shot.

The '62 pots are clearly wrong as no single-cut Les Paul was made between 1961 and 1968. They will have been re-used from something else.

guitars4you

BloodEagle said:

guitars4you said:

can you clarify a couple of points for me - The serial number is it 6 or 7 digit - should be 6 - looks 459390 - but looks a 1 between the 5 and 9 - might be a mark or light - If 459390 that looks like a 74 - But embossed pick up covers indicate 72 period - Could be fitted at a later date

Pots appear to be 134 6202 - is that correct - as that would indicate 1962 pots as you suggested

4519390 - yes, 7 digits. Minus the 4 it would be a 74, but with? Who knows. The guy who checked it out suggested that the serial numbers a pretty unreliable from this period anyway, and to go on features instead, given the lack of volute etc this still leaves me confused though ? Edit, yes pots are 1346202 

The 7 digit is clearly sign of repair - Gibson should be 6 digit for that era

Yes 519390 or 459390 indicate a 74 period - But that number is wrong

Agree with @ICBM about the front facia of the headstock but again this is probably reflective of a repair

The 6 digit number is not ideal to date a guitar to a specific year but generally gets you close at least, coupled with various other features - But 7 digits is wrong - hard to fathom out why any repair guy would get this so wrong

ICBM

guitars4you said:

But 7 digits is wrong - hard to fathom out why any repair guy would get this so wrong

I think it can only be on purpose, hence is probably some sort of code used by the repairer to date the work or a deliberate 'tell' to make sure that it can't be passed off as original.

Clearly *something* has been done to the neck, the question is what...

BloodEagle

The bridge hasn’t been filed down, it’s exactly the same dimensions as another same period bridge I have. It doesn’t look like a reneck, the finish is pretty obviously original from the body right the way up the neck until it isn’t. Here’s some more shots 

SteveRobinson

I'm going with re-neck. The lower corners of the headstock facing have been sanded off to fit.

Fron the overspray on the binding I'd say the whole neck, if not the body too has been resprayed.

ICBM

That end of the neck does look original, as does the truss rod cavity. The bridge is not that low when you see it side-on - the bottom of the tune-o-matic has been filed at the ends, but perhaps just to clean up some uneven plating and make it sit more firmly on the wheels, rather than reduce height.

So at this point I would go with a shaved volute and the back of the head sanded enough to remove the original serial number and Made In USA stamps.

LastMantra

On a Gibson, does the paint usually bleed on to the binding? 

Bridgehouse

LastMantra said:

On a Gibson, does the paint usually bleed on to the binding? 

It can do, depending on the era and the chemistry of the dye. Typically it’s the cherry and the sunburst colours that bleed (and mostly the cherry) due to the dye. 

It’s the aniline used in the dye from certain periods that causes it. 

Haych

I am by no means any kind of expert, but here's a thought.  The serial number is quite clearly wrong, but both 451939 (without the last '0') and 519390 (without the '4') would both be 74/75 instruments.  Could the serial number have been deliberately doctored with either the first 4 or last 0, for whatever reason?  It would be the easiest way to alter the serial number.

Another thought is that since the 'Made in USA' stamp has been possibly sanded out then the original serial number could have been too (I don't know how you'd effectively sand the 'Made in USA' out without at least partially running into the serial number, unless it's just been filled but I think you'd see some sort of ghosting maybe?) and it's been restamped and altered at the same time - possibly as above or with a completely different number altogether.

From the pictures the back of the headstock the finish looks very orange-peely so to my untrained eye it looks like it's been refinished for some reason, as stated above probably the removal of the volute.  Or it could be that all Gibsons of the era have poor paint - I don't know, I've rarely seen one from that era to compare it to, I'm just thinking in type.

Also, I'm not sure if the serial number is meant to be centred on the back of the headstock, but without the '4' it looks like it would be to me.  If I had to pick one digit from the serial that looked not quite right it would also be the 4.

I'm not a betting man but my money would be on it being a 74/75 instrument.

All of that could just be rubbish though, like I say I'm no expert at all.

ICBM

 Can you tell through the finish on the back of the head and neck whether the neck is a 3-piece? If it’s not then it’s a replacement.

stratntele

Embossed Gibson logo on the pickups are mostly found on 1972 guitars according to various forums although they could have been swapped from another guitar during its lifetime.....

BloodEagle

ICBM said:

 Can you tell through the finish on the back of the head and neck whether the neck is a 3-piece? If it’s not then it’s a replacement.

It is a 3 piece, if yo look closely at the heel you can see