Has anybody started using modelling amps

ecc83

IC, since you have not had one fail you will not have had an ID 60 PA on the bench? I did not do a lot with them but they are weird!

As you say, in a live playing test they are as loud AF! But if you try to test them with sine waves and loads they tend to shut down on you all the time.  I doubt the modules could be used for "hi fi" applications as critical listening would probably detect the protection coming in on peaks but since this is a sort of "squashing" of the power output and not clipping, in a "RnR" situation it does not get noticed.

Funnily enough I had  a slightly similar experience with a rack mount on site PA amp. Rated at 100W and running a traff* to get 100V line it was easily up to the job of speech repro over a score of speakers in a factory. But, if you ran wideband music into it and tried to "rock" it sounded weak and dreadful. Obviously the protection circuits were  kicking in on  music, probably the LF signals not present in speech.

*I was told by a gradute electronics tech that it is virtually impossible to "saturate" an OPT in a valve amp  and the only one he could manage it with was a very overstressed HT-5 traff  (the HT-1 did not exist at the time)  I also doubt that a properly terminated transformer acts as any kind of "filter" in the audio band?

Dave.

p90fool

gearaddict said:

Plus there are any number of pros using Fractal, Kemper and Helix for live and recording, so if it's good enough for them...

What does that mean? That if it's appropriate for the style of someone who gets paid more than I do then it's good enough for me? 

Danny1969

*I was told by a gradute electronics tech that it is virtually impossible to "saturate" an OPT in a valve amp  and the only one he could manage it with was a very overstressed HT-5 traff  (the HT-1 did not exist at the time)  I also doubt that a properly terminated transformer acts as any kind of "filter" in the audio band?

Dave.

Even the tiny audio transformers used in mic pre amps have harmonic distortion, again a pleasing kind at the higher end of the market. That's why old Neve'e are so valuable, even if you copy the circuit there's no access to the original transformers. Mutual induction isn't linear across the audio spectrum and making changes in the transformer core to correct low end will make the top end worse and vice versa. The only efficient transformer is one that works at a fixed high frequency like in a switch mode supply.
I'm convinced the real magic of a valve amp isn't in the valves it's in the transformer  ......... I'm working on a drive pedal design at the moment that uses a one to one isolating transformer and just having that in the circuit makes a difference

ICBM

I certainly think it’s a major part of it, and also because of what it does to the output impedance and damping factor. Valve amps are far less damped than solid-state ones, which I’m sure is one reason they sound much more dynamic and louder for a given rated power output, even clean.

jonnyburgo

I like both. The sounds I can get out of my Vox vt40x are perfect for home use and negates the need for any pedals, the clean sounds really are amazing on the Fender and Vox models, More bottom end and toppy sparkle than my Jet City 2ow valve combo had. The Orange and the Dumble modes are also great for fat overdrive sounds.

Very cheap too at less than £100 used.

Jonathanthomas83

I use a Kemper and it's the single best piece of gear I've ever owned. I still keep trying other things, high end amps, load boxes, Axe FX III, Helix, they're all great but since I got the Kemper last year, I've found that I can't go back or move on to anything else now.

ecc83

ICBM said:

I certainly think it’s a major part of it, and also because of what it does to the output impedance and damping factor. Valve amps are far less damped than solid-state ones, which I’m sure is one reason they sound much more dynamic and louder for a given rated power output, even clean.

Apples and oranges chaps.

1) I said traffs are "almost" impossible to saturate in a valve amp (and if you managed it the valves would be very unhappy!)

2) Yes, small transformers produce distortion which is proportional to signal level, inversely to frequency and to drive impedance. The whole lot is an equation that I don't understand but the math IS predictable.

3) "Back in the Day" Transformers were used because they HAD to be but gear was still required to be "hi fi". The overdriving of transformers is a relatively new practice and one much steeped in snake oil IMHO.

3) Distortion is not the same as a "filter".  I have done live, in circuit A/B tests (good players with good ears) and despite the transformers being made by various manufacturers (at different prices) they cannot be told apart.

4) Valve guitar amps, especially those with no NFB have buggerall damping factor anyway. Measure it sometime. Rout for the classic AC30 runs around 50 Ohms.

Like almost everything to do with guitar amp sound there is a lot of opinion but almost no research . But then it suits the Big Boys to keep it "arty" and they are the only ones who could fund it.

Dave.

digitalscream

ecc83 said:

Like almost everything to do with guitar amp sound there is a lot of opinion but almost no research . But then it suits the Big Boys to keep it "arty" and they are the only ones who could fund it.

At this point, it wouldn't matter if you did do the research, backed up with irrefutable evidence.

See: Flat Earth Theory

gearaddict

p90fool said:

gearaddict said:

Plus there are any number of pros using Fractal, Kemper and Helix for live and recording, so if it's good enough for them...

What does that mean? That if it's appropriate for the style of someone who gets paid more than I do then it's good enough for me? 

No. Who are you? I meant it's probably good enough for me tbh.

jpfamps

ecc83 said:

IC, since you have not had one fail you will not have had an ID 60 PA on the bench? I did not do a lot with them but they are weird!

As you say, in a live playing test they are as loud AF! But if you try to test them with sine waves and loads they tend to shut down on you all the time.  I doubt the modules could be used for "hi fi" applications as critical listening would probably detect the protection coming in on peaks but since this is a sort of "squashing" of the power output and not clipping, in a "RnR" situation it does not get noticed.

Funnily enough I had  a slightly similar experience with a rack mount on site PA amp. Rated at 100W and running a traff* to get 100V line it was easily up to the job of speech repro over a score of speakers in a factory. But, if you ran wideband music into it and tried to "rock" it sounded weak and dreadful. Obviously the protection circuits were  kicking in on  music, probably the LF signals not present in speech.

*I was told by a gradute electronics tech that it is virtually impossible to "saturate" an OPT in a valve amp  and the only one he could manage it with was a very overstressed HT-5 traff  (the HT-1 did not exist at the time)  I also doubt that a properly terminated transformer acts as any kind of "filter" in the audio band?

Dave.

HT"40" shows transformer saturation with a 100 Hz sine wave at full power.

prowla

I'm just awaiting delivery of a Markbass EVO 1.

First test when I get it will be to plug my Ric in with channel 1 on Ampeg and channel 2 on Marshall.

PolarityMan

gearaddict said:

p90fool said:

gearaddict said:

Plus there are any number of pros using Fractal, Kemper and Helix for live and recording, so if it's good enough for them...

What does that mean? That if it's appropriate for the style of someone who gets paid more than I do then it's good enough for me? 

No. Who are you? I meant it's probably good enough for me tbh.

I think the other interpretation is a fair point too though. In that if the people at the top of the game are using them then they are "good enough", at least from a sound quality perspective... and you're likely basing your preference on other factors (the most common one being the feel which i agree is not quite there, at least on helix).

gearaddict

PolarityMan said:

gearaddict said:

p90fool said:

gearaddict said:

Plus there are any number of pros using Fractal, Kemper and Helix for live and recording, so if it's good enough for them...

What does that mean? That if it's appropriate for the style of someone who gets paid more than I do then it's good enough for me? 

No. Who are you? I meant it's probably good enough for me tbh.

I think the other interpretation is a fair point too though. In that if the people at the top of the game are using them then they are "good enough", at least from a sound quality perspective... and you're likely basing your preference on other factors (the most common one being the feel which i agree is not quite there, at least on helix).

My comment was made out of surprise really, as I was referring to my own preferences and didn't expect it to be taken as suggesting others should accept modelling if they don't like it. I was confused by the comment and I wondered I'd missed something in the thread, coz I couldn't find it. Reading it back, it sounds a bit arsey but that wasn't my intention at the time. I was just puzzled.

Anyway, I go back and forth on modelling and sometimes I think "well, who am I to complain when pros use them live or to record whole albums". But I think in some ways amateurs like me are more demanding because we mostly experience guitar sounds through a real cab, unlike most pros who use in-ears and are focused on delivering good sound to an audience through a PA or via a recording. So I suppose it is only natural that people like me would be discontented when we feel like modelled sounds 'in the room' are lacking something we normally hear with our real amps.

That said, if I don't A/B modelled sounds with real amps, then I am quite happy with modelled sounds. I've had to use modelling recently because we needed to use in-ear monitoring. I've never been happy with the sounds I get through headphones though...it sounds pretty nasty to me. That's probably because I don't know how to set it up or we don't have the best gear but I just use it to get the job done rather than enjoying it very much.

PolarityMan

Different factors at work too. Touring artisits will often sacrifice say 5% of sound or feel in order to get something that is more portable because it makes touring cheaper. the point Im making though is that the quality has objectively reached a point where it cant just be dismissed out of hand and it's now more the secondary characteristics that are swaying people.

John_A

PolarityMan said:

Different factors at work too. Touring artisits will often sacrifice say 5% of sound or feel in order to get something that is more portable because it makes touring cheaper. the point Im making though is that the quality has objectively reached a point where it cant just be dismissed out of hand and it's now more the secondary characteristics that are swaying people.

My opinion of using a modeller direct and foldback via a monitor Vs an amp on stage for the average bloke playing pubs

'feel' on stage for the guitarist -1%
levels on stage for the rest of the band +20%
Quality of FOH sound for the audience +30%
Portability +50%

I know everyone's different, but for me (whos been playing valve amps for 30 years) theres just no point lugging one around any more

gearaddict

But I guess you have a consistent PA setup? If you are having to rely on whatever happens to be there then an amp and cab can be more reliable. I've had some awful sounds using the GSP1101 into some PA setups.

I suppose if you had a big / loud enough monitor that it can also double as backline...but then you lose some of the portability benefits.

John_A

gearaddict said:

But I guess you have a consistent PA setup? If you are having to rely on whatever happens to be there then an amp and cab can be more reliable. I've had some awful sounds using the GSP1101 into some PA setups.

I suppose if you had a big / loud enough monitor that it can also double as backline...but then you lose some of the portability benefits.

Yes, we have a consistent, and good PA, I suppose this approach wouldn't work as well with a small vocal PA, although we've done small gigs doing just that

My monitor is as small as I can get away with, dont want to use it as backline or want it to encroach on the on-stage or out front sound