Guitarist subbing on bass

pintspiller

I'm a guitarist but switched to bass several years ago as it's the only way to get gigs. At jams I was the one who thought their guitar chops weren't good enough and played bass.

I started off banging 8th notes on the root but started playing fills around the changes and learning or developing proper lines.

I started using the plectrum less as my grip got worse from carpal tunnel and play mostly with fingers now.

Try to match your notes with the kick first. Then any time the drummer hits something.

ICBM

pintspiller said:

Try to match your notes with the kick first. Then any time the drummer hits something.

This. The interesting thing is that - as long as you don’t play out of key - timing is far more important than the notes you play. I was watching that BBC drum/bass/guitar series the other night, where Bootsy Collins says that James Brown told him that as long as he was tight on the 1, whatever he wanted to do the rest of the time was fine. Obviously that works best if you have the natural talent and groove of Bootsy, but it’s a good place to start anyway.

jpfamps

ICBM said:

pintspiller said:

Try to match your notes with the kick first. Then any time the drummer hits something.

This. The interesting thing is that - as long as you don’t play out of key - timing is far more important than the notes you play. I was watching that BBC drum/bass/guitar series the other night, where Bootsy Collins says that James Brown told him that as long as he was tight on the 1, whatever he wanted to do the rest of the time was fine. Obviously that works best if you have the natural talent and groove of Bootsy, but it’s a good place to start anyway.

Assuming the chord changes always fall on the 1.........

jpfamps

ICBM said:

AlexO said:

 I guarantee you will go into the first practice playing it like a lead guitar.

I play bass like a rhythm guitarist...

As did Lemmy!

Who also played a Rick........

EricTheWeary

ICBM said:

pintspiller said:

Try to match your notes with the kick first. Then any time the drummer hits something.

This. The interesting thing is that - as long as you don’t play out of key - timing is far more important than the notes you play. I was watching that BBC drum/bass/guitar series the other night, where Bootsy Collins says that James Brown told him that as long as he was tight on the 1, whatever he wanted to do the rest of the time was fine. Obviously that works best if you have the natural talent and groove of Bootsy, but it’s a good place to start anyway.

Although always playing on the one is the worst advice for reggae. 

I remember an interview from years ago with Bruce Thomas when he said when he was starting out he couldn't really tell what notes were being played so he just copied the rhythms being played on bass on his favourite Motown records and his own choice of notes. When he then started in the Attractions he was being told the notes but he could add the rhythms he'd learned so even if he was playing the root it was interesting.

PolarityMan

pintspiller said:

Try to match your notes with the kick first. Then any time the drummer hits something.

Wait there's a time when your drummer *isn't* hitting something? 

PolarityMan

I do wonder if those who play bass like a guitar write? For me the bass usually serves a fairly distinct compositional role to the guitar and even if they are playing closely related parts (like in metal pattern-riff playing for example) varying the bass between sections can provide huge feel changes.

deano

I got my first bass (Fret King Elite) on Christmas morning and have been trying to get to grips with the damned thing since!

Just recently I started recording myself in Reaper, playing along to a drum machine type VST. That was a real eye opener. After playing rhythm guitar for years I thought I was on the money with timing.

But those little blobs of recordings just ahead of the beat show the reality. You can't mask a waveform can you?

Trying harder to nail the beat is hard. But I am getting there. I can play some simple lines with mostly good timing now!

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

ICBM

deano said:

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

It depends what style of music and 'feel' you're aiming for - (just) ahead or behind the beat can be exactly what you need. It needs to be consistent and probably at least vaguely intentional though, not just sloppy.

Many years ago I once nearly fell out with another bass player by complementing him on the nice dub-reggae feel he got by playing just behind the beat. It turned out he didn't like reggae, and was playing in time... he thought!

deano

ICBM said:

deano said:

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

It depends what style of music and 'feel' you're aiming for - (just) ahead or behind the beat can be exactly what you need. It needs to be consistent and probably at least vaguely intentional though, not just sloppy.

Many years ago I once nearly fell out with another bass player by complementing him on the nice dub-reggae feel he got by playing just behind the beat. It turned out he didn't like reggae, and was playing in time... he thought!

Well as it's mainly blues/blues rock that I play, just ahead of the beat would be fine to push things along, I agree, but I want to be in control of it. As you say, it will be better to have enough control to play either side, or exactly on, the beat as required.

Bridgehouse

deano said:

ICBM said:

deano said:

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

It depends what style of music and 'feel' you're aiming for - (just) ahead or behind the beat can be exactly what you need. It needs to be consistent and probably at least vaguely intentional though, not just sloppy.

Many years ago I once nearly fell out with another bass player by complementing him on the nice dub-reggae feel he got by playing just behind the beat. It turned out he didn't like reggae, and was playing in time... he thought!

Well as it's mainly blues/blues rock that I play, just ahead of the beat would be fine to push things along, I agree, but I want to be in control of it. As you say, it will be better to have enough control to play either side, or exactly on, the beat as required.

Are you playing pick or finger style? 

I found with finger style it takes a while to get used to the fact that the action of moving your finger across the string takes longer than you think, and to play truly in time you have to anticipate it a bit. 

Funkfingers

jpfamps said:

ICBM said:
I was watching that BBC drum/bass/guitar series the other night, where Bootsy Collins says that James Brown told him that as long as he was tight on the 1, whatever he wanted to do the rest of the time was fine.

Assuming the chord changes always fall on the 1.

Not necessarily.

If the bass line is a repetitive groove, the horns could stab away anywhere in the bar and it should all still work. 

Throughout the album, Astral Weeks, Van Morrison can be heard getting extremely free with his vocal phrasing. The session musicians keep things together behind him. 

deano

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

ICBM said:

deano said:

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

It depends what style of music and 'feel' you're aiming for - (just) ahead or behind the beat can be exactly what you need. It needs to be consistent and probably at least vaguely intentional though, not just sloppy.

Many years ago I once nearly fell out with another bass player by complementing him on the nice dub-reggae feel he got by playing just behind the beat. It turned out he didn't like reggae, and was playing in time... he thought!

Well as it's mainly blues/blues rock that I play, just ahead of the beat would be fine to push things along, I agree, but I want to be in control of it. As you say, it will be better to have enough control to play either side, or exactly on, the beat as required.

Are you playing pick or finger style? 

I found with finger style it takes a while to get used to the fact that the action of moving your finger across the string takes longer than you think, and to play truly in time you have to anticipate it a bit. 

Fingerstyle.

That explains it then. I need to think ahead fractionally to allow for the string to start ringing out at the right point, allowing for the finger to carry out the "pluck".

I would love to hear whether really "tight" for want of a better word, bass players who are known for playing right on the beat have ever had a waveform, like I get in Reaper, and what it shows. Whether they really are on the beat or if, like me, it starts fractionally before the beat.

Bridgehouse

deano said:

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

ICBM said:

deano said:

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

It depends what style of music and 'feel' you're aiming for - (just) ahead or behind the beat can be exactly what you need. It needs to be consistent and probably at least vaguely intentional though, not just sloppy.

Many years ago I once nearly fell out with another bass player by complementing him on the nice dub-reggae feel he got by playing just behind the beat. It turned out he didn't like reggae, and was playing in time... he thought!

Well as it's mainly blues/blues rock that I play, just ahead of the beat would be fine to push things along, I agree, but I want to be in control of it. As you say, it will be better to have enough control to play either side, or exactly on, the beat as required.

Are you playing pick or finger style? 

I found with finger style it takes a while to get used to the fact that the action of moving your finger across the string takes longer than you think, and to play truly in time you have to anticipate it a bit. 

Fingerstyle.

That explains it then. I need to think ahead fractionally to allow for the string to start ringing out at the right point, allowing for the finger to carry out the "pluck".

I would love to hear whether really "tight" for want of a better word, bass players who are known for playing right on the beat have ever had a waveform, like I get in Reaper, and what it shows. Whether they really are on the beat or if, like me, it starts fractionally before the beat.

I’ve recorded loads of my bass lines and have tracks with our band as well. 

It’s hit and miss. Like all players I have good and bad days. The timing really comes with how well your muscle memory is developed - you get an ear for anticipating the beat and working with the drummer (they have the same issue as they have to raise the stick before they can hit something!) 

Click tracks helped a lot as they are merciless and really expose timing issues, and getting that “rolling over the string” technique for each finger works well too. 

The biggest improvement in my timing though came with learning proper floating thumb

deano

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

ICBM said:

deano said:

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

It depends what style of music and 'feel' you're aiming for - (just) ahead or behind the beat can be exactly what you need. It needs to be consistent and probably at least vaguely intentional though, not just sloppy.

Many years ago I once nearly fell out with another bass player by complementing him on the nice dub-reggae feel he got by playing just behind the beat. It turned out he didn't like reggae, and was playing in time... he thought!

Well as it's mainly blues/blues rock that I play, just ahead of the beat would be fine to push things along, I agree, but I want to be in control of it. As you say, it will be better to have enough control to play either side, or exactly on, the beat as required.

Are you playing pick or finger style? 

I found with finger style it takes a while to get used to the fact that the action of moving your finger across the string takes longer than you think, and to play truly in time you have to anticipate it a bit. 

Fingerstyle.

That explains it then. I need to think ahead fractionally to allow for the string to start ringing out at the right point, allowing for the finger to carry out the "pluck".

I would love to hear whether really "tight" for want of a better word, bass players who are known for playing right on the beat have ever had a waveform, like I get in Reaper, and what it shows. Whether they really are on the beat or if, like me, it starts fractionally before the beat.

I’ve recorded loads of my bass lines and have tracks with our band as well. 

It’s hit and miss. Like all players I have good and bad days. The timing really comes with how well your muscle memory is developed - you get an ear for anticipating the beat and working with the drummer (they have the same issue as they have to raise the stick before they can hit something!) 

Click tracks helped a lot as they are merciless and really expose timing issues, and getting that “rolling over the string” technique for each finger works well too. 

The biggest improvement in my timing though came with learning proper floating thumb

Heh! I'm a blues player - that G string is going to be superfluous to requirements most of the time. If I have to go down there, something has gone very wrong for me!

Bridgehouse

deano said:

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

ICBM said:

deano said:

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

It depends what style of music and 'feel' you're aiming for - (just) ahead or behind the beat can be exactly what you need. It needs to be consistent and probably at least vaguely intentional though, not just sloppy.

Many years ago I once nearly fell out with another bass player by complementing him on the nice dub-reggae feel he got by playing just behind the beat. It turned out he didn't like reggae, and was playing in time... he thought!

Well as it's mainly blues/blues rock that I play, just ahead of the beat would be fine to push things along, I agree, but I want to be in control of it. As you say, it will be better to have enough control to play either side, or exactly on, the beat as required.

Are you playing pick or finger style? 

I found with finger style it takes a while to get used to the fact that the action of moving your finger across the string takes longer than you think, and to play truly in time you have to anticipate it a bit. 

Fingerstyle.

That explains it then. I need to think ahead fractionally to allow for the string to start ringing out at the right point, allowing for the finger to carry out the "pluck".

I would love to hear whether really "tight" for want of a better word, bass players who are known for playing right on the beat have ever had a waveform, like I get in Reaper, and what it shows. Whether they really are on the beat or if, like me, it starts fractionally before the beat.

I’ve recorded loads of my bass lines and have tracks with our band as well. 

It’s hit and miss. Like all players I have good and bad days. The timing really comes with how well your muscle memory is developed - you get an ear for anticipating the beat and working with the drummer (they have the same issue as they have to raise the stick before they can hit something!) 

Click tracks helped a lot as they are merciless and really expose timing issues, and getting that “rolling over the string” technique for each finger works well too. 

The biggest improvement in my timing though came with learning proper floating thumb

Heh! I'm a blues player - that G string is going to be superfluous to requirements most of the time. If I have to go down there, something has gone very wrong for me!

Floating thumb is just as useful on A and D as well

deano

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

Bridgehouse said:

deano said:

ICBM said:

deano said:

That is my only lesson to give out at this stage - play to a beat and record it to really see how you are doing - ahead or behind isn't good enough in this game.

It depends what style of music and 'feel' you're aiming for - (just) ahead or behind the beat can be exactly what you need. It needs to be consistent and probably at least vaguely intentional though, not just sloppy.

Many years ago I once nearly fell out with another bass player by complementing him on the nice dub-reggae feel he got by playing just behind the beat. It turned out he didn't like reggae, and was playing in time... he thought!

Well as it's mainly blues/blues rock that I play, just ahead of the beat would be fine to push things along, I agree, but I want to be in control of it. As you say, it will be better to have enough control to play either side, or exactly on, the beat as required.

Are you playing pick or finger style? 

I found with finger style it takes a while to get used to the fact that the action of moving your finger across the string takes longer than you think, and to play truly in time you have to anticipate it a bit. 

Fingerstyle.

That explains it then. I need to think ahead fractionally to allow for the string to start ringing out at the right point, allowing for the finger to carry out the "pluck".

I would love to hear whether really "tight" for want of a better word, bass players who are known for playing right on the beat have ever had a waveform, like I get in Reaper, and what it shows. Whether they really are on the beat or if, like me, it starts fractionally before the beat.

I’ve recorded loads of my bass lines and have tracks with our band as well. 

It’s hit and miss. Like all players I have good and bad days. The timing really comes with how well your muscle memory is developed - you get an ear for anticipating the beat and working with the drummer (they have the same issue as they have to raise the stick before they can hit something!) 

Click tracks helped a lot as they are merciless and really expose timing issues, and getting that “rolling over the string” technique for each finger works well too. 

The biggest improvement in my timing though came with learning proper floating thumb

Heh! I'm a blues player - that G string is going to be superfluous to requirements most of the time. If I have to go down there, something has gone very wrong for me!

Floating thumb is just as useful on A and D as well

I know. But I rest my thumb on the pickup, or the low E and rest notes seem to take care of things.

I know I should learn things properly. Just laziness.

Bridgehouse

@deano - just like I used to. There’s no right or wrong way, and floating thumb holds some people back too much.

I tried it, and it revolutionised my timing, feel and articulation so I worked on it. It isn’t for everyone tho

deano

I keep giving it a go, and it doesn't feel right. It feels more natural to me to rest my thumb on the E or A strings as appropriate. I was exagerating a little about not playing on the G string, and am making progress with sliding my thumb onto the A string when down there.

Anyway, more ingrained is the fact that I keep slipping into playing pentatonic box shapes on the top three strings, wondering why they don't sound right, and then realising it is because they are not the top three strings of a guitar, but of a bass!

I keep trying to slip in a guitar fill and then wonder why it sounds bad!

Damned overblown, overweight, overlarge, missing strings... barge!