Blackface Princeton Reverb - educate me!

Octafish

A mate of mine has lent me his Fender Blackface Princeton Reverb to have a bit of a play with. Unless I'm mistaken, these are generally considered great amps, but I'm not sure if I'm quite getting all of it?

First of all the reverb is amazing, I have played one briefly before and it is still the best spring reverb I've ever heard. The cleans are always pretty impressive, but it can be very bottom heavy, I assume the 10" speaker contributes to this a bit? It's also got rather a lot of top end. I'm using my Strat with vintage output single coils and running it at practice levels with the bass on about 3 and the treble on about 4.

Where I'm running into issues is using drive/fuzz pedals. I tried a variety of drive (TS, Hudson Broadcast, Sweet Baby etc) and fuzz and it just sounds a bit brittle/harsh and lacking in warmth. I think I am missing a middle control to crank up in these situations. Are drive pedals just not that compatible with the Princeton? I understand the Princeton sounds great cranked into natural breakup, but that's a bit too loud to do at home. Is it an amp that needs to be cranked to get the best from it?

munckee

I bought the 68 custom for that very reason its compatibility with pedals.  They payoff was the clean was not as clean as the 65.  Having changed the speaker to an alnico jensen I would say it has the best of both worlds.

I have bass at 1 as its really bassy, treble at 5 and if I can't be bothered to plug in the footstwitch then I have trem and reverb at 1 too.

Loves a tubescreamer although I have tone at 9 o clock, also loves my very light overdrive and my marshall compressor.  Sometimes I leave the board and go through a joyo amercian sound which you can match to sound exactly like the princeton with more gain.  

With no pedals it breaks up on 3 with humbuckers.

ICBM

That brittle/buzzy sound is normal for Blackface/Silverface Fenders with dirt pedals - it's because there's a treble-pass cap in the reverb mixer section. Some models are even worse at low volume because there's an extra cap on the volume control, although the Princeton doesn't have that.

The amp actually does have a middle control, it's a fixed resistor internally equivalent to a setting of about 7, so it's not that. The mid-scoop is part of the overall voicing - if it's still too bassy and trebly you can turn those right down, but you'll never remove the basic character of the amp.

roberty

Mine had a Celestion speaker in and was good with dirt pedals.  Got a bit farty over 6 or so on the dial but up until that point was really sweet.  I am on the harder stuff now (Deluxe Reverb, the Princeton being a gateway blackface)

p90fool

Out of my extensive stash of cheapish pedals, the Bad Monkey, Marshall Drivemaster, Joyo Ultimate Drive and Danelectro Cool Cat Fuzz were excellent, most of my other dozen or so drive or fuzz pedals were harsh or brittle.

That's with a Princeton at low volume, when you CAN run the amp at halfway or so they all pretty much smooth out nicely.  

My favourite was the Nobels ODR-1, which sounds like it's switched off until you raise the gain. Not the nicest flat out drive ever, but you can set it to sound like a Princeton with just a hint of drive and compression. 

You can of course spend 200 quid a time on "boutique" pedals, but it's still the same lottery with a Princeton. 

srato

I've never understood why PRRI sell like hot cakes.  They are expensive amps with no FX loop, no mid setting, their clean sound is good but not better than many cheaper amps, they fart, etc.

smigeon

Yes, a lottery. At our last band practice - a quietish do with bass and drums in a smallish room - I tried my old Zvex Box of Rock into my '68 Princeton RI. It sounded great, adding a nice Marshally option over the lovely Princeton clean. I also tried a RAT, which is generally my favourite OD pedal into most amps, but into the Princeton it didn't sound that great at all.

menamestom

PRRI sound great with drive pedals!  The stock speaker in the '65 is pants though and needs swapping out for pedals.
Ragin Cajun is good.

Here's mine years ago with a SHOD.

p90fool

srato said:

I've never understood why PRRI sell like hot cakes.  They are expensive amps with no FX loop, no mid setting, their clean sound is good but not better than many cheaper amps, they fart, etc.

It's not a master volume amp so there'd be no point in an FX loop, and there is a mid setting, it's 6.8

Gagaryn

Octafish said:

A mate of mine has lent me his Fender Blackface Princeton Reverb to have a bit of a play with. Unless I'm mistaken, these are generally considered great amps, but I'm not sure if I'm quite getting all of it?

First of all the reverb is amazing, I have played one briefly before and it is still the best spring reverb I've ever heard. The cleans are always pretty impressive, but it can be very bottom heavy, I assume the 10" speaker contributes to this a bit? It's also got rather a lot of top end. I'm using my Strat with vintage output single coils and running it at practice levels with the bass on about 3 and the treble on about 4.

Where I'm running into issues is using drive/fuzz pedals. I tried a variety of drive (TS, Hudson Broadcast, Sweet Baby etc) and fuzz and it just sounds a bit brittle/harsh and lacking in warmth. I think I am missing a middle control to crank up in these situations. Are drive pedals just not that compatible with the Princeton? I understand the Princeton sounds great cranked into natural breakup, but that's a bit too loud to do at home. Is it an amp that needs to be cranked to get the best from it?

This is at least partly down to guitarists (possibly all humans) irrational aversion to turning things right down. Why run bass at 3 and treble at 4 if you find it too bassy and trebly? Nothing wrong with turning them both down to the minimum. However I supsect that it is probably not the right amp for you - what you are describing sounds like a typical PRRI. Some like that sound, others don't.

dannyboy82

I got rift to build me a pine 1x12 for my Princeton and loaded it with WGS G12C. I quite liked the stock amp but this made for a vast improvement.

Octafish

Thanks for all the replies, that clarifies things for me.

ICBM said:

That brittle/buzzy sound is normal for Blackface/Silverface Fenders with dirt pedals - it's because there's a treble-pass cap in the reverb mixer section. Some models are even worse at low volume because there's an extra cap on the volume control, although the Princeton doesn't have that.

The amp actually does have a middle control, it's a fixed resistor internally equivalent to a setting of about 7, so it's not that. The mid-scoop is part of the overall voicing - if it's still too bassy and trebly you can turn those right down, but you'll never remove the basic character of the amp.

I did wonder if something along theses lines would be the case. After using lots of drive in my early years I went through a phase for some years of predominantly using clean sounds. During that time I got into using classic Fender valve amp clean sounds. In the last 5-6 years I've got back into dirt (and other FX) and now use quite a bit of fuzz which seem to work better for me with less 'Fendery' amps. Amps with less mid-scoop now seem to be my thing and I think I need more midrange, time for a Marshall?

Gagaryn said:

This is at least partly down to guitarists (possibly all humans) irrational aversion to turning things right down. Why run bass at 3 and treble at 4 if you find it too bassy and trebly? Nothing wrong with turning them both down to the minimum. However I supsect that it is probably not the right amp for you - what you are describing sounds like a typical PRRI. Some like that sound, others don't.

Very true, was thinking that myself. Although I know the controls are there to use from 0-10, depending on what suits the player best, for some reason it still bugs to roll eq that far off when whatever sounds good should be the only concern. I was only borrowing the amp to try out, not purchase, but could have been tempted. The cleans are good and the reverb sublime! Would be interesting to try a 68 Custom...

Zoolooter

Maybe try a Catalinbread 5F6 low/medium drive with bass, treble and an all important mid control.

Mickeyji

I've had a few blackface-type amps and I've found the speaker can be problematic for playing with gain. The Jensens a lot of Fenders come with sound great clean but tend to get harsh and scratchy with many pedals, IMO. A softer voiced speaker with a dampened top end like a  Cannabis Rex can be a good solution.Tubescreamers and similar pedals work quite well with stock Fenders because of the inherent mid-hump compensating for the scooped Fender sound and the reduced bass which can fart out on smaller Fender amps. 

crunchman

dannyboy82 said:

I got rift to build me a pine 1x12 for my Princeton and loaded it with WGS G12C. I quite liked the stock amp but this made for a vast improvement.

A 10" WGS is a significant improvement in the stock cabinet - and is relatively cheap.

Octafish

Zoolooter said:

Maybe try a Catalinbread 5F6 low/medium drive with bass, treble and an all important mid control.

I've got a Wampler 65 clone with bass, middle and treble which I shall give a try.

I've been playing around more with just the clean sounds, which are obviously good, using an EP booster clone. I'm a big fan of the EP boost and goes very nicely with the Princeton plus a Hudson Broadcast. I guess a good set up for me would be an A/B box with the Princenton for clean/light drive and my Bassbreaker 15 for heavy drive/fuzz .

I hear all the talk of speaker swaps, but that seems a bit crazy thing to have to do with a £1100 amp. Plus I'm not planning on buying it even though my mate us selling it, honest 

menamestom

Octafish said:

Zoolooter said:

Maybe try a Catalinbread 5F6 low/medium drive with bass, treble and an all important mid control.

I hear all the talk of speaker swaps, but that seems a bit crazy thing to have to do with a £1100 amp. Plus I'm not planning on buying it even though my mate us selling it, honest 

To be fair, if buying 2nd hand, a speaker swap needn't cost more than £30-£50, so it’s not a massive upgrade.  Almost everybody does it with these amps and really if you only ever try them with the stock Jensen’s, you’re never going to hear the amp how it should be heard.  The Jensens sound good clean at lower volumes, but are no great pushed at all and don’t take pedals well.