Vintage guitar values.

ronnyb

Just thumbing through my 1999 copy of the Blue Book of electric guitars and values that i found whilst having a clear out in the loft. I realise that the comparison in values then and now is not an exact science due to their desirability now to then and the fact they are 20 years older so more 'vintage' but just a few interesting examples. The values in the book are in dollars so i've converted to gbp at $1.60 which was the exchange rate then. 1964 strat VG or 80% condition £2000 then, equalling £3437 now. 81 to 83 'Smith' strat near mint condition, £437 then or £751 now. 69 Les Paul standard VG or 80% £1125 then to £1933 now. 

simonhpieman

Bit tricky with US prices. Vintage stuff seems much cheaper over there to start with. More supply so slightly less demand, perhaps?

As an example, you can apparently find a decent CBS Jaguar for ~$2000-2500. No chance of getting even close to that in £ over here, let alone after conversion. I'm sure CITES hasn't helped (though hopefully there'll be progress on that soon) and Brexit will only make things worse in that regard.

guitars4you

simonhpieman said:

Bit tricky with US prices. Vintage stuff seems much cheaper over there to start with. More supply so slightly less demand, perhaps?

As an example, you can apparently find a decent CBS Jaguar for ~$2000-2500. No chance of getting even close to that in £ over here, let alone after conversion. I'm sure CITES hasn't helped (though hopefully there'll be progress on that soon) and Brexit will only make things worse in that regard.

CITES will still have an impact on vintage guitars with a Brazilian fingerboard - They are under a different CITES agreement and need the article 10 paperwork

We'll know more soon about CITES on regular sales that contain Indian Rosewood very soon - But Brz fingerboards is  a different deal

SimpleSimon

guitars4you said:

simonhpieman said:

Bit tricky with US prices. Vintage stuff seems much cheaper over there to start with. More supply so slightly less demand, perhaps?

As an example, you can apparently find a decent CBS Jaguar for ~$2000-2500. No chance of getting even close to that in £ over here, let alone after conversion. I'm sure CITES hasn't helped (though hopefully there'll be progress on that soon) and Brexit will only make things worse in that regard.

CITES will still have an impact on vintage guitars with a Brazilian fingerboard - They are under a different CITES agreement and need the article 10 paperwork

We'll know more soon about CITES on regular sales that contain Indian Rosewood very soon - But Brz fingerboards is  a different deal

Interesting point there Mark, how would they know it was Brazilian though historically? is there accepted cut offs in time for Gibson/Fender/Epiphone/Gretsch/Martin/ etc when they stopped using Brazilian Rosewood on regular instruments. Most of us couldn't tell the difference really, whilst new guitars tend to have the spec sheets detailing what they are made of.

guitars4you

SimpleSimon said:

guitars4you said:

simonhpieman said:

Bit tricky with US prices. Vintage stuff seems much cheaper over there to start with. More supply so slightly less demand, perhaps?

As an example, you can apparently find a decent CBS Jaguar for ~$2000-2500. No chance of getting even close to that in £ over here, let alone after conversion. I'm sure CITES hasn't helped (though hopefully there'll be progress on that soon) and Brexit will only make things worse in that regard.

CITES will still have an impact on vintage guitars with a Brazilian fingerboard - They are under a different CITES agreement and need the article 10 paperwork

We'll know more soon about CITES on regular sales that contain Indian Rosewood very soon - But Brz fingerboards is  a different deal

Interesting point there Mark, how would they know it was Brazilian though historically? is there accepted cut offs in time for Gibson/Fender/Epiphone/Gretsch/Martin/ etc when they stopped using Brazilian Rosewood on regular instruments. Most of us couldn't tell the difference really, whilst new guitars tend to have the spec sheets detailing what they are made of.

valid point - many changed around 1965 - but no official date as such - Depends on what they had in the 'store room' and varied from one brand to another - Bare in mind a substantial increase in production from 1960 to 1965 and it did not take them long to run out of Brazilian - Change to Indian rosewood was part cost, part quicker supply and in production lines, both are 'king'

I dare say most Custom officials can't tell the difference - But they don't need to - If they have doubts they can detain or confiscate/destroy as required - You have to prove otherwise  - I believe there are only a few airports in the USA that you can officially fly out of with article 10 certificates and  appropriate guitar

To buy and sell a vintage guitar in the USA with Brz board, you don't need an article 10 CITES certificate - You only need it for a commercial purpose, when a sales transaction takes place, across customs borders - With a good wind behind you , then you might get away with it on a mail order transaction, but equally the risk is to have it impounded - If you bring it back on a plane with you, it can get complicated, but equally you can get away with it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or ?????????????????

guitars4you

Who knows what will happen with Brexit at this stage - Equally what will happen with CITES at the next meeting - But we have had notification from the hierarchy  within the trade about CITES and that busy ports like Dover will not be handling such goods/paperwork - With a potential increase in workload then the UK office are to increase staff level - Remember DEFRA look after illegal + legal supply or wildlife, plants as well as wood

CMW335

My 1964 D28 has Brazilian Roswewood back and sides so will be interested to see how it all pans out. 

guitars4you

CMW335 said:

My 1964 D28 has Brazilian Roswewood back and sides so will be interested to see how it all pans out. 

Is roswewood very rare ????????????????

it is not illegal to own the guitar so nothing to worry about, especially if acquired before 1992

It OFFICIALLY only becomes an issue, whereby you need to OFFICIALLY apply or an article 10 certificate in order to sell it - MANY MANY MANY just ignore the whole process if such guitars sold on FB, e-bay, gumtree, reverb, dealers etc etc 

bgmartinsbridge

Just to throw in the mix - I find it really interesting to compare new Fender prices to vintage.

Custom Shop Strat or Tele now around £3k. 
Masterbuilt £5-£8k.

What can you get vintage for the price of a new guitar. 

Makes vintage seem cheap - until you get in to the really good stuff! 

guitars4you

bgmartinsbridge said:

Just to throw in the mix - I find it really interesting to compare new Fender prices to vintage.

Custom Shop Strat or Tele now around £3k. 
Masterbuilt £5-£8k.

What can you get vintage for the price of a new guitar. 

Makes vintage seem cheap - until you get in to the really good stuff! 

Can I add to that  ? - How do you know the vintage guitar is genuine - 8k to15K for a 1960-64 period Strat and I would be very nervous about what I've actually acquired

Granted there has been a few fraudulent CS and/or MB models but no where near as many as vintage models

However would agree that certain vintage models are far more 'affordable' and as such closer in price to CS replicas - Jags for instance

bgmartinsbridge

Totally agree with the vintage early sixties strats and for that matter teles. 

Where have all the dogs gone? - are they with collectors or have they just disappeared.
There used to be loads hanging around and for that matter parts! 

All have been hoovered up and parts reused I guess. 

It's one of the reasons, whilst I'd love an older strat, I haven't plucked up the courage to buy one. 

guitars4you

bgmartinsbridge said:

Totally agree with the vintage early sixties strats and for that matter teles. 

Where have all the dogs gone? - are they with collectors or have they just disappeared.
There used to be loads hanging around and for that matter parts! 

All have been hoovered up and parts reused I guess. 

It's one of the reasons, whilst I'd love an older strat, I haven't plucked up the courage to buy one. 

Being sarcastic then I could say the dogs are now 'original' and offered for sale to those potential buyers who are less careful !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes the parts market has seriously increased over the years

On paper I'd say I would not be objectionable to buying a re-built/customised old 'un - It would be nice to see it listed for sale as this, without trying to be what it isn't - But in reality what price should such a guitar be

I was offered a few months ago such a 'dog' as you mentioned from a deceased estate - A 62 Strat - Stripped down to bare wood - Faulty neck pick-up - non original wiring loom - Needed a refret - So I'm weighing up costs and do I get involved - I could book it in for a very good refin, or leave stripped natural and I could go either way with this - Certainly needed a refret and all the nail grooves taken out - Needed a new wiring loom and 1 pick-up to be rewired - A new set of saddles would have helped - So I take this into account and look at a potential sale price - Figures did not add up as the customer would not budge below £4000 - As it stood it was totally useless and unplayable - It needed a good 1K spending on it - So cost is now 5K and I would not have been comfortable asking 6K for it, albeit I'd have expected it to be a corker after such work carried out

Koa

Cosmetically speaking it might not seem as appealing but I’d take a stripped instrument over a refin any day. Seems more authentic somehow, that’s what people did back then and at least you know what you’re getting....

ICBM

Koa said:

Cosmetically speaking it might not seem as appealing but I’d take a stripped instrument over a refin any day. Seems more authentic somehow, that’s what people did back then and at least you know what you’re getting....

Most importantly you know there isn’t any well-filled routing in it, and secondly you can choose your own colour without worrying about effectively paying twice for it.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

Koa said:

Cosmetically speaking it might not seem as appealing but I’d take a stripped instrument over a refin any day. Seems more authentic somehow, that’s what people did back then and at least you know what you’re getting....

Most importantly you know there isn’t any well-filled routing in it, and secondly you can choose your own colour without worrying about effectively paying twice for it.

agree - less BS with such a guitar

meltedbuzzbox

guitars4you said:

ICBM said:

Koa said:

Cosmetically speaking it might not seem as appealing but I’d take a stripped instrument over a refin any day. Seems more authentic somehow, that’s what people did back then and at least you know what you’re getting....

Most importantly you know there isn’t any well-filled routing in it, and secondly you can choose your own colour without worrying about effectively paying twice for it.

agree - less BS with such a guitar

To be fair the vintage market is full of BS regardless

LesbianWithAGun

Because of that budget guitar brand 'Vintage', I'm wary about tagging my un modified antique guitars vintage on social media videos I share featuring them.

Curse you Vintage Guitars.

meltedbuzzbox

LesbianWithAGun said:

Because of that budget guitar brand 'Vintage', I'm wary about tagging my un modified antique guitars vintage on social media videos I share featuring them.

Curse you Vintage Guitars.

Ah ha he's back!

TeleMaster

I’ve got a refin 64 L series Strat. It’s been appraised individually by 3 well respected experts. It’s got everything it’s meant to have and nothing it’s not. I’m confident it is what it is. One person who appraised it offered to buy it from me for more than what I paid for it. Even offered me a couple of Collectors Choice Les Pauls and cash. 

If you do your homework and scrutinise everything and walk away at the slightest doubt you’ll be okay. I don’t think there’s fake after fake out there, but I do think you have to educate yourself and take every precaution.

In any case, it seems that I should have bought it in 1999!

guitars4you

TeleMaster said:

I’ve got a refin 64 L series Strat. It’s been appraised individually by 3 well respected experts. It’s got everything it’s meant to have and nothing it’s not. I’m confident it is what it is. One person who appraised it offered to buy it from me for more than what I paid for it. Even offered me a couple of Collectors Choice Les Pauls and cash. 

If you do your homework and scrutinise everything and walk away at the slightest doubt you’ll be okay. I don’t think there’s fake after fake out there, but I do think you have to educate yourself and take every precaution.

In any case, it seems that I should have bought it in 1999!

100% agree about the appraisal, educate yourself and be aware, then walk away if in doubt

Agree there are genuine examples out there - But there are no shortage of those with issues that are not as described

I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who recalls in the 70's how many were stripped back to natural, had Mighty Mite (or similar brass saddles), brass top nut, Dimarzio SD1 in the bridge - Please tell me when you (as in anyone) have ever seen such a guitar for sale in the last 10 years - They appear to have become 'original' again - Either by naivety or design

Nothing wrong with selling one with a stripped finish, brass top nut etc, just needs to be correctly listed and priced accordingly

Equally nothing wrong with selling one with a refin and/or a couple of changed parts - But again they must be correctly listed and priced accordingly

You are right - Buyer beware

meltedbuzzbox

TeleMaster said:

I’ve got a refin 64 L series Strat. It’s been appraised individually by 3 well respected experts. It’s got everything it’s meant to have and nothing it’s not. I’m confident it is what it is. One person who appraised it offered to buy it from me for more than what I paid for it. Even offered me a couple of Collectors Choice Les Pauls and cash. 

If you do your homework and scrutinise everything and walk away at the slightest doubt you’ll be okay. I don’t think there’s fake after fake out there, but I do think you have to educate yourself and take every precaution.

In any case, it seems that I should have bought it in 1999!

But are you actually buying a guitar like that to play it because it's a good guitar?
If you are more concerned over original solder and original saddle pieces, when do you factor in the playability of the guitar?

Vintage guitars tend to stink of kudos first and foremost. Someone mentioned previously about all the dogs that used to be around, it's funny how they don't seem to exists any more. Everyone's vintage guitar is just better "because it's old".

Also how some dealers like ATB guitars seem to have an infinite supply of supposedly rare/scarce instruments is very interesting.