What's all this neck angle thing about? Recent Gtr mag articles

grappagreen

Hi all,

I've noticed a couple of articles in Guitarist and The Guitar Mag recently that make reference to changing the neck angle on bolt-on guitars. Guitarist mentioned it in an article on Strat setups and The Gtr in the current offset issue. Some suggestions around shimming to introduce a slight neck angle.

It's a sad fact but I'm a cynic and I take anything I read these days with a pinch of salt (excluding this forum of course!) so I'd be really interested in why this is proposed and what benefits it actually provides..

Si

sweepy

Neck angle, on a Strat especially, is crucial in setting a good action and reasonable saddle height along with an ergonomic playing position

grappagreen

sweepy said:

Neck angle, on a Strat especially, is crucial in setting a good action and reasonable saddle height along with an ergonomic playing position

Thanks for this.

I have two S type guitars and a T type that have perfectly flat setups i.e. no neck angle and they have great actions and bridge/saddles heights that are fine i.e. not too high or low. These guitars are pretty high end so I would expect the neck heel depth to be 'right' and not require any shimming to get the geometry right. I suppose if things were less 'optimal' then shimming a neck would allow this to be changed...

The articles seem to make more reference to tonal benefits than ergonomics however and hence the question.

Si

sweepy

The break angle increases slightly at the bridge and that can focus the sound a little, as with most tweaks it's lots of small things adding up to a noticeable difference

stickyfiddle

For me it's mostly about getting the saddles in a place where the grub screws don't stick out and hurt your hand... 

dhaywood67

Neck angle and neck relief aren't the same thing. Neck relief is the curvature along the neck whereas neck angle is the angle of the neck to the body. Just because your neck is set with next to no relief doesn't mean the neck hasn't been shimmed to create the correct neck angle. Think of neck angle as part of a triangle comprising the body, neck and strings with the neck being the only adjustable part of that triangle. That's a very simple explanation as I know the saddles, nut and truss rod are also adjustable but they're more for fine tuning.

grappagreen

dhaywood67 said:

Neck angle and neck relief aren't the same thing. Neck relief is the curvature along the neck whereas neck angle is the angle of the neck to the body. Just because your neck is set with next to no relief doesn't mean the neck hasn't been shimmed to create the correct neck angle. Think of neck angle as part of a triangle comprising the body, neck and strings with the neck being the only adjustable part of that triangle. That's a very simple explanation as I know the saddles, nut and truss rod are also adjustable but they're more for fine tuning.

Thanks but neck relief is not what I'm asking about. When I say I have flat setup I am referring to the fact that the necks are parallel to the body. All of my necks have a small amount of relief..

The question was specifically around the angle of the neck and why introducing a neck angle would have a positive impact.

I can understand that a change in geometry might be useful to say bring the strings/saddles slightly away from the body if they were too close or the saddles were a bit low for effective bridge muting i.e. it was a little uncomfortable ergonomically.

The break angle thing is also of interest - does this impact on the 'stiffness' of a guitar (all other things being equal)?

Si

dogload

The article in the Guitar Mag about offsets was it?

If so, it is certainly relevant to them as increasing the neck angle helps add tension/ break angle over the bridge and thus improves tuning stability (as mentioned in the article). I have several offsets and have shimmed them all and those with the standard 'shitty' Jag/ JM bridge work fine without having to shell out on Mastery or Staytrem. 
It doesn't take much of an increase in the angle but it's a surprising amount of improvement

stickyfiddle

dogload said:

The article in the Guitar Mag about offsets was it?

If so, it is certainly relevant to them as increasing the neck angle helps add tension/ break angle over the bridge and thus improves tuning stability (as mentioned in the article). I have several offsets and have shimmed them all and those with the standard 'shitty' Jag/ JM bridge work fine without having to shell out on Mastery or Staytrem. 
It doesn't take much of an increase in the angle but it's a surprising amount of improvement

Yup. Makes a much bigger difference in an offset because you only have an angle of 10 degrees or so, so a small increase is a big proportional change. Compared to a Strat or Tele where the string hits the saddle then dives 45 degrees twice on its way into the block/body.

Maynehead

For me it’s action and ergonomics.

When you can’t drop the action enough at the bridge you need to shim the neck.

I also like the strings to be away from the body a bit more than usual, as it feels more comfortable for my strumming hand, so that can also be achieved with more neck angle.

As for the actual tone, I don’t think there’s much difference a small change in neck angle will make.

andrewaward

Originally in the 50s and 60s most if not all Fenders left the factory with neck shims.

jags and Jazzmasters have always been about shimin’ the neck and raising the bridge to aid setup and help with the break angle behind the bridge.

fretmeister

stickyfiddle said:

For me it's mostly about getting the saddles in a place where the grub screws don't stick out and hurt your hand... 

You can buy shorter screws.

stickyfiddle

fretmeister said:

stickyfiddle said:

For me it's mostly about getting the saddles in a place where the grub screws don't stick out and hurt your hand... 

You can buy shorter screws.

True. But you can also get it perfect with a combination of the right length screws and a shim  

maltingsaudio

stickyfiddle said:

fretmeister said:

stickyfiddle said:

For me it's mostly about getting the saddles in a place where the grub screws don't stick out and hurt your hand... 

You can buy shorter screws.

True. But you can also get it perfect with a combination of the right length screws and a shim  

This ^^ although why the bent saddles haven’t been consigned to the bin of not fit for purpose yet is beyond me

Del_Preston

Ahem...

http://www.highwood-guitarparts.com/

stickyfiddle

maltingsaudio said:

stickyfiddle said:

fretmeister said:

stickyfiddle said:

For me it's mostly about getting the saddles in a place where the grub screws don't stick out and hurt your hand... 

You can buy shorter screws.

True. But you can also get it perfect with a combination of the right length screws and a shim  

This ^^ although why the bent saddles haven’t been consigned to the bin of not fit for purpose yet is beyond me

Because they work fine and anything else sounds different? 

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

Because they work fine and anything else sounds different? 

They're a masterpiece of design - as basic as they can possibly be and still work properly, and for whatever reason nothing else seems to quite sound as good.

DeeTee

ICBM said:

stickyfiddle said:

Because they work fine and anything else sounds different? 

They're a masterpiece of design - as basic as they can possibly be and still work properly, and for whatever reason nothing else seems to quite sound as good.

Is there really much of a sound difference between the bent saddles and something like this? https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/All_Hardware_and_Parts_by_Instrument/Electric_Guitar_Parts/Electric_Guitar_Saddles/Saddles_for_Modern_Tele_Bridge_Chrome_set_of_6.html

I only ask because I far prefer the modern style ergonomically.

ICBM

DeeTee said:

Is there really much of a sound difference between the bent saddles and something like this? https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/All_Hardware_and_Parts_by_Instrument/Electric_Guitar_Parts/Electric_Guitar_Saddles/Saddles_for_Modern_Tele_Bridge_Chrome_set_of_6.html

I only ask because I far prefer the modern style ergonomically.

Yes, but if you can find steel block ones they’re a lot closer.

richardhomer

grappagreen said:
I have two S type guitars and a T type that have perfectly flat setups i.e. no neck angle and they have great actions and bridge/saddles heights that are fine i.e. not too high or low. These guitars are pretty high end so I would expect the neck heel depth to be 'right' and not require any shimming to get the geometry right. I suppose if things were less 'optimal' then shimming a neck would allow this to be changed...

It really varies from guitar to guitar. On 50s style Fenders, the necks seem to sit slightly higher against the body, requiring less (or possibly no) angle to allow a decent action. Whether this is because 50s necks were generally thicker - or had slightly shallower pockets, I’m not sure. On later guitars, necks generally sat lower - requiring more angle.

As has been mentioned already, it was common for older Fenders to leave the factory with shims - Leo Fender developed the ‘Microtilt’ to avoid the need for this - though Fender didn’t actually adopt it until after he left the company.

dindude

Strats and Teles are designed to have a straight geometry, let’s make no mistake there. The shim is an unsophisticated get out of jail for manufacturing tolerances. In 2019 and CNC, there’s no excuse for any guitar of this persuasion to need a shim. If building a partscaster from various manufacturers then maybe.

Offsets are a bit more complex, and do most often need some neck angle, why they don’t all come with angled neck pockets in this day and age is beyond me.

Im not a huge fan of the shim, as you may be able to tell.