Does a luthier built/fettled guitar sound better than a CNC'd machine built one?

Wolfetone

I was looking at an old Morris Marina the other day. I noticed the difference in the panel gaps compared to a new car. The old Morris had gaps and shut lines varying from 7mm down to virtually nothing. I then took a look at my own modern car which had gaps the same dimension everywhere. 

In these days of hi-tech manufacturing processes, precision is incredible but I then wondered how it impacted guitar building?

I would assume that back in the day, most guitars were hand built and assembled. For example, most people would covet a '59 Les Paul but does the older guitar REALLY play better than a new CNC machined one? 

These days everything is super accurate but do guitars break that rule? Is a hand made luthier built guitar better than a machined one?

richardhomer

No - there may be some set-up nuances - such as introducing fall away at the end of a fretboard which a small builder may do - but otherwise I think the best CNC guitars of today represent the best you can buy.

ICBM

No. The final factor in whether a guitar sounds great, or only good, is largely pure luck - determined by the resonances of the particular pieces of wood.

The best guitars are probably those assembled by hand from accurate machine-made parts, by people who know how to choose the right combination of parts and put them together well.

I think this may be why the consistently best-sounding modern guitars I can think of are the 'team built' CS Fenders.

gringopig

.

OilCityPickups

A beautifully built CNC cut guitar can play as well as a beautifully built, hand cut and shaped one ... and lets remember 'hand cut' usually means templates and a router/bandsaw ... so not really hand cut. The difference as @gringopig says, is in the input you get into the build, the more labour intensive processes that may be involved in a luthier built guitar, like inlay work, and custom hand fret finishing and custom finishes. Remember now too that many small builders are using CNC as the price has come down hugely. 
Ultimately with a small builder you get personal attention and service ... and that's what costs you more.

Sassafras

We're back to the old "try as many as you can" adage.
CNC builds might play better but that doesn't mean they sound better.

Funkfingers

gringopig said:

a guitar doesn't intonate

By definition, my bestest electric guitar cannot intonate accurately on all six strings because it has an uncompensated three saddle bridge. 

ICBM said:

pure luck ... assembled ... by people who know how to choose the right combination of parts

Some of my more successful upgrade projects have been arrived at by trial and error. (Try this pickup in that guitar.) The knack is:

1. noticing when a particular combination exceeds expectations.
2. refraining from further tinkering.

guitars4you

Many comments above are touching on my view points as well

CNC based production runs have been around since the mid late 70's and the days of the Peavey T60 - Yet prior to that templates, routers and band saws have been utilised for far longer - Granted the neck shaping was largely undertaken by hand via a thumb plain and undertaken by a few members of staff - Hence many variations on Gibson and Fender's from the 'golden era' - Yes they have a similar template, but subtle variations within that

Today I'd say the tolerance levels are, or can be, far tighter, be it from a hand built luthier or via a CNC

PRS are mainly responsible for taking modern production builds to a new impeccable attention to detail  - Select luthiers can match this - Pull a hair from you head - Now split the diameter in 3  and that is the tolerance that PRS, via a CNC can cut and build to  - Be it CNC or hand built and the attention to detail can vary, depending on the builders own attention to detail

Both CNC and hand built can be taken to the nth degree, hence both are capable of building perfection - If they have a wider tolerance, then the final result can change

Does either method produce a better guitar - Yes and no is the ultimate answer

alcxam

I'd say that it depends upon your emotional sophistication (and disposable income) as to which is better...

Danielsguitars

i can only compare mine to mass produced stuff, i always find a tonal difference and find mine more musical for want of a better word

Small builders will also be able to taylor necks etc over a standard cnc 

I like the little nuances of hand mades and no 2 are the same, similar but always different 

Only the individuals trying them will see if its good bad better etc and if it's worth it or not

mbe

Wolfetone said:

I was looking at an old Morris Marina the other day. I noticed the difference in the panel gaps compared to a new car. The old Morris had gaps and shut lines varying from 7mm down to virtually nothing. I then took a look at my own modern car which had gaps the same dimension everywhere. 

The Marina probably had consistent bodywork lines when it was built but aging door hinges and the weird torsion bar suspension most likely bent it out of shape.

rossi

I had a Morris Marina for my sins .It handled poorly .One day when i was taking some rubbish up the local tip ,before recycling was invented ,my wife asked me to look out for a butlers sink to use as a planter .Amazingly a guy was taking one out of his boot so I opened mine and in it popped .I left it in there as she wasnt ready to do anything with it yet  and  when I went on a long trip to London  I noticed the car handled much better so it stayed in there .The sink is still in our garden but the Mariana has made baked bean tins many times over, all it really ever was .

ICBM

mbe said:

The Marina probably had consistent bodywork lines when it was built but aging door hinges and the weird torsion bar suspension most likely bent it out of shape.

No. My dad used to work in the motor parts industry in the 1970s, and those cars never fitted properly from the day they were made.

He had a Triumph 2500 estate as his company car - three of them in a row. They had various faults, but the most amusing was the second one, where if he accelerated hard the bodyshell would flex enough with the power being transferred through the rear axle that the tailgate would pop open .

p90fool

ICBM said:

mbe said:

The Marina probably had consistent bodywork lines when it was built but aging door hinges and the weird torsion bar suspension most likely bent it out of shape.

No. My dad used to work in the motor parts industry in the 1970s, and those cars never fitted properly from the day they were made.

He had a Triumph 2500 estate as his company car - three of them in a row. They had various faults, but the most amusing was the second one, where if he accelerated hard the bodyshell would flex enough with the power being transferred through the rear axle that the tailgate would pop open .

I'm not at all surprised, a friend of mine inherited an Allegro with 1,400 miles on it - when he jacked up the nearside front to put the spare on when he got a puncture the windscreen popped out and slid slowly and gracefully down the bonnet, then smashed to pieces on the road before he had a chance to grab it. 

Matt_McG

@ICBM I'd agree re: team-built CS fenders.

I never really bought into expensive guitars as a thing. I've always owned sub 1K mid-priced Japanese or Korean made guitars. Decent well-made instruments, with good pickups (either replacement, or in the case of my G&L, it has the same pickups as the US made model anyway). Whenever I've tried more expensive sub-2K guitars, I've never really felt I was getting anything more for my money. There were guitars I liked more or less than others, but nothing consistently better about the guitars at a higher price point, either in terms of playability or sound. 

Except ... for a couple of CS strats I've tried. Which just had something ... a resonance, and, without getting into pseud-y wine-tasting language, a kind of papery dryness and complexity of tone that I've only come across before on 1960s instruments (I've played a couple of "student" level 60s Fenders: Duosonics, and the like). I don't know if it was the choice of wood (the CS guitars were noticeably light), the finish (nitro), or the hardware/pickups. But they were bloody great guitars.

Wonky

I think that maybe CNC machining does produce some amazing results, but don't loose site of the fact that wood as a material is organic and no two pieces are ever the same no matter how well they're chosen.  With a hand made instrument a good luthier feels the wood whilst working it and through experience and skill, works more with the wood and not just machines it into shape.
With all that said you can get amazing instruments both ways.  Just get the one that you connect with is what I'd say, no matter how it's made. 

sweepy

In one word YES

ESBlonde

I think that small builders may be more select in thier choice of timbers. A good luthier can set a guitar up exactly to your specifications complete with rolled fingerboard and compound radius fret leveling.

But a good factory made guitar can be as good although they are less consistently so.

I like the Morris Marina analogy, BL cars was frought with politically motivated employees determined to ruin thier employers. They typically threw togerther cars and are the root of the phrase 'Friday afternoon car'. The big guitar makers have been guilty of throwing together guitars and not caring about the workforce/quality, think Norlin and CBS as a start. The Japanese factory processe model  from the 70s have completely changed the world of manufacturing.

Mark1960

p90fool said:

ICBM said:

mbe said:

The Marina probably had consistent bodywork lines when it was built but aging door hinges and the weird torsion bar suspension most likely bent it out of shape.

No. My dad used to work in the motor parts industry in the 1970s, and those cars never fitted properly from the day they were made.

He had a Triumph 2500 estate as his company car - three of them in a row. They had various faults, but the most amusing was the second one, where if he accelerated hard the bodyshell would flex enough with the power being transferred through the rear axle that the tailgate would pop open .

I'm not at all surprised, a friend of mine inherited an Allegro with 1,400 miles on it - when he jacked up the nearside front to put the spare on when he got a puncture the windscreen popped out and slid slowly and gracefully down the bonnet, then smashed to pieces on the road before he had a chance to grab it. 

I borrowed my mums Allegro when I was about 19 to do a tour around Norway & Sweden one summer, as my old banger def. wouldn't have made it. In terms of reliability it was fine, but to this day I have never driven a worse handling vehicle! It was atrocious - handled like a camel with rubber legs! How we ever got home alive I do no know.

ESBlonde

Mark1960 said:

p90fool said:

ICBM said:

mbe said:

The Marina probably had consistent bodywork lines when it was built but aging door hinges and the weird torsion bar suspension most likely bent it out of shape.

No. My dad used to work in the motor parts industry in the 1970s, and those cars never fitted properly from the day they were made.

He had a Triumph 2500 estate as his company car - three of them in a row. They had various faults, but the most amusing was the second one, where if he accelerated hard the bodyshell would flex enough with the power being transferred through the rear axle that the tailgate would pop open .

I'm not at all surprised, a friend of mine inherited an Allegro with 1,400 miles on it - when he jacked up the nearside front to put the spare on when he got a puncture the windscreen popped out and slid slowly and gracefully down the bonnet, then smashed to pieces on the road before he had a chance to grab it. 

I borrowed my mums Allegro when I was about 19 to do a tour around Norway & Sweden one summer, as my old banger def. wouldn't have made it. In terms of reliability it was fine, but to this day I have never driven a worse handling vehicle! It was atrocious - handled like a camel with rubber legs! How we ever got home alive I do no know.

I once drove a Morris Marina (garage loaner) 120 miles to a family gathering and back. As if that wasn't bad enough, I couldn't be sure the front shocks weren't worn out too, (hard to tell). But it pointed in several directions randomly along the dual carrigeway and A roads and gave me sweaty palms a few times as it fooled me into thinking it was going head on for a truck! Fetching shade of brown plastic inside and a naff green for the bodywork.

guitars4you

ESBlonde said:

I think that small builders may be more select in thier choice of timbers. A good luthier can set a guitar up exactly to your specifications complete with rolled fingerboard and compound radius fret leveling.

But a good factory made guitar can be as good although they are less consistently so.

I'd say a small luthier has to be more selective - It surely has to be part of their policy and USP

Small luthiers don't have access to such a wide selection of appropriate wood as say Gibson/PRS - Equally the corporate companies can pick and select 'the better' pieces as required, for their elite models - Then move 'less suitable' timber down the product line if to heavy, less resonant, any visual blemishes that can sit under a solid finish - etc etc - To minimise wastage

I'd agree that you have the option of speaking to such a small luthier, to hopefully nail down any spec to the nth degree to suit your requirements