Insulation in garage conversion help

Lestratcaster

I don't at the moment, partly cos of temperature and mostly cos of security.

Snap

I work in an outbuilding and use oil filled rads for heating. I have one small ish one and two medium sized ones. They are on timers so come on before I start work, go off a little after. They are not too bad to run cost wise at all and do a great job. The workspace is a bit bigger than yours.

once an oil filled rad is heated up, it stays hot for quite a while. You can also get the ones that have a fan in them (mine do) and they are good a heat boost, but tbh I hardly ever use the fan. I think these ones were 50 quid ish, maybe a bit less. Screwfix I think.

A fan is a very expensive way of heating a room. This building has AC too, but I never use it for heat, but do use it on very hot days.

Lestratcaster

Yeah I have one oil radiator but its not big enough so I'd have to get at least 2 more of them to keep the room warm.

I've thought about underfloor heating but seeing as I'm not in there for more than 4 hours per day its not worth the cost of installing.

Lestratcaster

Originally got a Technotherm 2400w heat retention radiator but its 62kg and too heavy to carry through the house to the back, let alone mount onto the walls! So exchanging for 2 x Haverland RC waves. One 1400w one 1100w. Both weigh 15.5kg and 12kg respectively.

If mounting to the wall the plasterboard and breeze block behind it should be able to take the weight of these radiators shouldn't they? I mean a small Marshall combo is around 27kg.

Lestratcaster

Just bringing this up again as I have some thoughts. Since the last post I got the 2 Haverland electric radiators (1 x 1400w and 1 x 1100w). Also I have the Delonghi oil filled radiator. With at least 2 of the radiators on it heats the room nicely but not cheap to run - I think it works out 2kwh per hour. During the colder winter months (Nov - Feb) the heating bill goes up obviously, by about £40 per month. Dec and January are perhaps the coldest of the 4 months. April - Sept I don't need to use any heating, well, maybe the small oil filled one for about 20 minutes.

The walls and ceiling were insulated with 25mm celotex and some other insulated plasterboard (I don't actually know what mm thickness it is) but the room is very cold still. The floor wasn't insulated, and because of the damp proof liquid membrane with a compound level we couldn't use an underlay under the carpet. This is perhaps contributing to alot of the cold ness. Thinking back 25mm is nowhere near thick enough insulated, shed's use that just to stop frost! But back when converting I was just desperate to get the thing done and open, and didn't think things through fully (my mistake I know). Plus it was finished in the spring months so the cold weather didn't come into it.
I think if I had done it again I would have said at least 75mm celotex or build wooden batten frames and fill with rockwool like you get in loft insulations.

Been mulling over a few options to maybe try to cut down the heating bill, or should I just accept for 3-4 months of the year the heating will just be a bit higher? I'm not in there every single day and make a good job of switching off the radiators when the room is comfortably warm.

I have thought about:

1. Underfloor heating. Apparently cheap to run but expensive to install and needs a good few hours to bring up to temperature. But there's no gas supply to the garage - only electrics so maybe not cost effective and only keeps the floor warm.

2. Insulating again over the existing plasterboard, add another 50mm at least. There's a few sockets in there though would need to pull those forward and again, the cost will be alot upfront.

3. Wood burner - cheap to run again but would need a flue pipe thing coming out the ceiling, there's the wiring for the lights and stuff up there so hard to find a spot. Is it safe as well? Could be harmful pollution in the particles.

4. Air conditioner. High cost upfront but with the less than optimum insulation maybe not the best.

5. Or am I just overthinking everything? As I said 4 months with an extra £40-£50 on the heating bill isn't that bad, its £200 extra per year considering the heating is only used for less than half the year. I won't make the money back from material and labour costs from the other 4.

bertie

Lestratcaster said:

1. Underfloor heating. Apparently cheap to run but expensive to install and needs a good few hours to bring up to temperature. But there's no gas supply to the garage - only electrics so maybe not cost effective and only keeps the floor warm.

uh, no - heat rises !! no shit - its a "solid" way of heating a room - (ask the romans)

seriously,  what about the ceiling/loft space  - any room for more insulation ?  rockwool etc  - very cheap and very effective

Lestratcaster

This is a detached garage at the back of the garden. Like option 2 I can insulate over what I've already got, as I can lose a bit of space (its a massive room) but its the wall mount sockets and cost of doing it.

Danny1969

When I converted my garage I battened the walls, had 50mm of acoustic rockwool then 2 layers of 12mm plasterboard. Then I built a false internal self supporting roof with 100mm of acoustic rockwool, 18mm of MDF and 2 sheets of 12mm plasterboard. I made another internal door and frame and added another double glazed glass unit 20mm internal to the existing window. 

I just had a small 1.8KW heater and it was fine in winter and never got hot in summer either. When we built the real studio we used aircon units for heating as well as cooling. They were surprisingly effective at heating with various patterns you could switch on the remote and really quiet in operation. 

Wall mount sockets and trunking are pretty cheap, I put about 20 double gangs in as well as various sends and returns for the desk 

Lestratcaster

Danny1969 said:

When I converted my garage I battened the walls, had 50mm of acoustic rockwool then 2 layers of 12mm plasterboard. Then I built a false internal self supporting roof with 100mm of acoustic rockwool, 18mm of MDF and 2 sheets of 12mm plasterboard. I made another internal door and frame and added another double glazed glass unit 20mm internal to the existing window. 

I just had a small 1.8KW heater and it was fine in winter and never got hot in summer either. When we built the real studio we used aircon units for heating as well as cooling. They were surprisingly effective at heating with various patterns you could switch on the remote and really quiet in operation. 

Wall mount sockets and trunking are pretty cheap, I put about 20 double gangs in as well as various sends and returns for the desk 

Yes I remember you showed me this when I first converted - but like I said before I was so desperate to get it open I wasn't thinking straight. I should have gone with at least 50mm insulation. Having to use 2 radiators adding up to 2500kwh is pretty expensive but its a large room after all, 24sq metres. 

bertie

Lestratcaster said:

This is a detached garage at the back of the garden. Like option 2 I can insulate over what I've already got, as I can lose a bit of space (its a massive room) but its the wall mount sockets and cost of doing it.

Im re-doing my lofts,  I had no idea the new Gvmt recommendations (is it a legal thing ?  I dont know)  is  270mm and going to 300mm !!  a fucking foot of insulation................  Ive bought some 6m rolls of 170mm from Wicks  - about £22 a bag

jonnyburgo

I'm gonna need something for my garage soon, it's insulated. I was thinking one of those on the wall conservatory heaters?

ToneControl

Lestratcaster said:

Just bringing this up again as I have some thoughts. Since the last post I got the 2 Haverland electric radiators (1 x 1400w and 1 x 1100w). Also I have the Delonghi oil filled radiator. With at least 2 of the radiators on it heats the room nicely but not cheap to run - I think it works out 2kwh per hour. During the colder winter months (Nov - Feb) the heating bill goes up obviously, by about £40 per month. Dec and January are perhaps the coldest of the 4 months. April - Sept I don't need to use any heating, well, maybe the small oil filled one for about 20 minutes.

The walls and ceiling were insulated with 25mm celotex and some other insulated plasterboard (I don't actually know what mm thickness it is) but the room is very cold still. The floor wasn't insulated, and because of the damp proof liquid membrane with a compound level we couldn't use an underlay under the carpet. This is perhaps contributing to alot of the cold ness. Thinking back 25mm is nowhere near thick enough insulated, shed's use that just to stop frost! But back when converting I was just desperate to get the thing done and open, and didn't think things through fully (my mistake I know). Plus it was finished in the spring months so the cold weather didn't come into it.
I think if I had done it again I would have said at least 75mm celotex or build wooden batten frames and fill with rockwool like you get in loft insulations.

Been mulling over a few options to maybe try to cut down the heating bill, or should I just accept for 3-4 months of the year the heating will just be a bit higher? I'm not in there every single day and make a good job of switching off the radiators when the room is comfortably warm.

I have thought about:

1. Underfloor heating. Apparently cheap to run but expensive to install and needs a good few hours to bring up to temperature. But there's no gas supply to the garage - only electrics so maybe not cost effective and only keeps the floor warm.

2. Insulating again over the existing plasterboard, add another 50mm at least. There's a few sockets in there though would need to pull those forward and again, the cost will be alot upfront.

3. Wood burner - cheap to run again but would need a flue pipe thing coming out the ceiling, there's the wiring for the lights and stuff up there so hard to find a spot. Is it safe as well? Could be harmful pollution in the particles.

4. Air conditioner. High cost upfront but with the less than optimum insulation maybe not the best.

5. Or am I just overthinking everything? As I said 4 months with an extra £40-£50 on the heating bill isn't that bad, its £200 extra per year considering the heating is only used for less than half the year. I won't make the money back from material and labour costs from the other 4.

you need to insulate the floor, even if it's with non-optimum products
ideal solution is 10cm of Kingspan, with membrane and screed on the top
you'd need to look at specialist "problem solving" thinner products
I don't really understand your constraint caused by DPC

can you tell me what you use the room for and how much the bills are now for it?
£200 a year is probably not worth action unless you are not comfortable in there, Do your feet get cold?

Lestratcaster

ToneControl said:

you need to insulate the floor, even if it's with non-optimum products
ideal solution is 10cm of Kingspan, with membrane and screed on the top
you'd need to look at specialist "problem solving" thinner products
I don't really understand your constraint caused by DPC

can you tell me what you use the room for and how much the bills are now for it?
£200 a year is probably not worth action unless you are not comfortable in there, Do your feet get cold?

I spoke to my uncle last year about insulating the floor and he said I'd be wasting my money as most of the heat loss would be through the walls and ceiling.
The DPC can't be pierced with any nails or staples hence why we couldn't do a carpet underlay. But could we still put a screed over the levelling compound? As that's what's underneath carpet.

The room is used for a few guitar lessons per week (3-4 days) and occasional jamming/recording with mates on the weekend.
The most recent bill for electricity was £70 odd. December's bill £50. In the summer months its like £30.

My feet can get cold yes, also I don't want to leave any guitars in there partly due to security but the room gets very cold overnight. If I'm taking cables back in the house I can feel how cold they are when I move them.

ToneControl

Lestratcaster said:

ToneControl said:

you need to insulate the floor, even if it's with non-optimum products
ideal solution is 10cm of Kingspan, with membrane and screed on the top
you'd need to look at specialist "problem solving" thinner products
I don't really understand your constraint caused by DPC

can you tell me what you use the room for and how much the bills are now for it?
£200 a year is probably not worth action unless you are not comfortable in there, Do your feet get cold?

I spoke to my uncle last year about insulating the floor and he said I'd be wasting my money as most of the heat loss would be through the walls and ceiling.
The DPC can't be pierced with any nails or staples hence why we couldn't do a carpet underlay. But could we still put a screed over the levelling compound? As that's what's underneath carpet.

The room is used for a few guitar lessons per week (3-4 days) and occasional jamming/recording with mates on the weekend.
The most recent bill for electricity was £70 odd. December's bill £50. In the summer months its like £30.

My feet can get cold yes, also I don't want to leave any guitars in there partly due to security but the room gets very cold overnight. If I'm taking cables back in the house I can feel how cold they are when I move them.

someone gave you the wrong advice, you can put carpet underlay down with spray on adhesive

In an uninsulated house, 10% of heat loss is through the floor. Once you insulate the roof and walls, it will be a lot more.
A solid floor with no insulation will be worse.
You could use those thin insulation boards they sell to use under laminate flooring?

Is it double glazed?

Whatever you do it will always get cold when unused, don't store much kit in there. Electrical kit can suffer from condensation internally

Lestratcaster

ToneControl said:

Lestratcaster said:

ToneControl said:

you need to insulate the floor, even if it's with non-optimum products
ideal solution is 10cm of Kingspan, with membrane and screed on the top
you'd need to look at specialist "problem solving" thinner products
I don't really understand your constraint caused by DPC

can you tell me what you use the room for and how much the bills are now for it?
£200 a year is probably not worth action unless you are not comfortable in there, Do your feet get cold?

I spoke to my uncle last year about insulating the floor and he said I'd be wasting my money as most of the heat loss would be through the walls and ceiling.
The DPC can't be pierced with any nails or staples hence why we couldn't do a carpet underlay. But could we still put a screed over the levelling compound? As that's what's underneath carpet.

The room is used for a few guitar lessons per week (3-4 days) and occasional jamming/recording with mates on the weekend.
The most recent bill for electricity was £70 odd. December's bill £50. In the summer months its like £30.

My feet can get cold yes, also I don't want to leave any guitars in there partly due to security but the room gets very cold overnight. If I'm taking cables back in the house I can feel how cold they are when I move them.

someone gave you the wrong advice, you can put carpet underlay down with spray on adhesive

In an uninsulated house, 10% of heat loss is through the floor. Once you insulate the roof and walls, it will be a lot more.
A solid floor with no insulation will be worse.
You could use those thin insulation boards they sell to use under laminate flooring?

Is it double glazed?

Whatever you do it will always get cold when unused, don't store much kit in there. Electrical kit can suffer from condensation internally

Maybe they did. I didn’t think it through properly as the carpet was basically the last step before I was able for open it for lessons. Could look at insulation boards, this would be for the floor right? 

Yes it has 3 double glazed UPVC windows.

And most of the stuff goes back in the house overnight, just the cheap bulkier equipment stays in there. I try to make a habit of running the radiators for at least an hour though if I ain’t using it that day.

ToneControl

for the floor, yes

Danny1969

Heat is like sound ... it will try and move every way it can. Convection means will mean it will escape via the roof as hot air rises. Conduction will allow it to pass through the walls and floor if they aren't coupled right. I found making a false floor 2" off the concrete floor worked well, and also gave me somewhere to lose the cables. 

I left my guitars constantly in the garage and there was no problems as the temperature was alway pretty even. That was just running the little electric fire around 2 hours a night over the 5 hours I used to be in there. I accidentally left the fire on one early evening and went to do a jam night. When I came back 4 hours later I opened the door and a wave of heat hit me like an oven. never did again

Lestratcaster

Maybe I should look an underlay then to help the floor a bit? 

If I whack the thermostat on the electric radiators to 25 it feels like I'm in Spain after 30 minutes haha.

ToneControl

YBS Airtec Reflective Double Insulation 25 x 1.2m | Loft Insulation | Screwfix.com

Silver Acoustic Underlay | Flooringsupplies.co.uk

must be loads of options as well as standard underlay

Lestratcaster

Yes just something to keep the heat in longer perhaps as well. It usually takes a good hour to get the room to a comfortable temperature with both radiators on 18°c.