Trem types

drpbier

Could anyone school me on the various types of tremolo system and their characteristics in use? The context is that I'm saving up for a nice offset guitar - my top 2 contenders at the moment are a Novo Serus J and a Suhr JM Pro - the Novo has a Mastery and the Suhr has a Gotoh 510. I don't really know how they differ apart from visually, and then of course there are Strat terms, Bigsby, Floyd Rose and god knows whatever else.
How do these things all compare?

skullfunkerry

Strat trems and Floyd Roses work on more or less the same principle: the bridge rocks on a couple of points at the front, and can be set up to allow raising and lowering the pitch, or to allow lowering the pitch (aka 'diving' or 'divebombing') only. This is usually a personal preference thing, but some people say it affects tone and/or sustain too. Also if the bridge is set to float (allowing raising and lowering) then if you break a string the others will go sharp as the bridge moves back to compensate for the reduced overall string tension. The Floyd clamps the strings in the bridge (and at the locking nut), which generally gives (if it's set up correctly) a wider range of vibrato while maintaining tuning stability. Strat trems can either be connected to the guitar body through 2 or 6 points; other users will be able to offer insight on the pros and cons of these. There are various makes, such as Wilkinson, which use similar principles; each will tell you theirs is the best. The Gotoh 510 appears to be a Strat-style trem.

The Bigsby isn't something I have any experience of, but my understanding of it from what I've seen is that it's better for a very delicate subtle vibrato, but can be a bit iffy with tuning stability. Apparently restringing is a bit of an ordeal, too.

I've just had a look at the Mastery bridge online, that's not one I'm familiar with. I've read that Jaguar and Jazzmaster bridges are a bit of a pain, but that the Mastery addresses the issues successfully.

In terms of feel, a Strat trem and a Floyd Rose feel quite similar, depending on the strength and number of springs used. The arm and pivot point are more or less in the same place relative to each other and to your picking hand. The Mastery and Bigsby trems will feel different, but I've never played a guitar with either of those so I can't really help much with them, sorry

SouthpawMark

Take a look at the Duesenberg version. It’s rather brill. 

ICBM

skullfunkerry said:

The Bigsby isn't something I have any experience of, but my understanding of it from what I've seen is that it's better for a very delicate subtle vibrato, but can be a bit iffy with tuning stability. Apparently restringing is a bit of an ordeal, too.

None of this is true .

If the guitar is set up correctly it stays in tune very well, it's a piece of cake to restring if you learn the simple method of doing it, and it has the largest bend range of *any* vibrato.

... although most of it is in the UP direction . But it can go down further than most people realise too, if the arm is set reasonably high.

skullfunkerry

ICBM said:

skullfunkerry said:

The Bigsby isn't something I have any experience of, but my understanding of it from what I've seen is that it's better for a very delicate subtle vibrato, but can be a bit iffy with tuning stability. Apparently restringing is a bit of an ordeal, too.

None of this is true .

If the guitar is set up correctly it stays in tune very well, it's a piece of cake to restring if you learn the simple method of doing it, and it has the largest bend range of *any* vibrato.

... although most of it is in the UP direction . But it can go down further than most people realise too, if the arm is set reasonably high.

Every day's a school day: I had no idea about that!

Winny_Pooh

The biggest bigsby issue is that they are usually installed on 3 a side headstock guitars with binding nut angles. Mind you, that aside, with the bridge itself also adding friction it'll never stay in tune as much as a strat trem.

I do find that they easily do a more subtle vibrato that is nicer for chords. 

JM trems are technically more stable as they are on 6 in line heastock guitars and the rocking bridge helps string sticking vs shitty tune o matics.

So IMO
Best to worst to return to tune:

Floyd

Musicman/Gotoh 510 2 point trems etc

6 Screw strat style

Jazzmaster/Jaguar, Bigsby with rocker bridge

Bigsby on a Gibson

ICBM

Winny_Pooh said:

The biggest bigsby issue is that they are usually installed on 3 a side headstock guitars with binding nut angles. Mind you, that aside, with the bridge itself also adding friction it'll never stay in tune as much as a strat trem.

I do find that they easily do a more subtle vibrato that is nicer for chords. 

JM trems are technically more stable as they are on 6 in line heastock guitars and the rocking bridge helps string sticking vs shitty tune o matics.

This is exactly right, which is why a *proper* Bigsby Tele with the Jazzmaster bridge, as well as the straight string pull, stays in tune perfectly - it's not the Bigsby which causes trouble. If you don't have a rocking bridge, a roller bridge works well too.

merciful-evans

Almost every trem system I've ever used eventually annoys me. I blocked the Fender Strat after a couple of years and blocked the Floyd Rose on my Jackson after a few months.

The main reason is because they prevent you doing stop bends (playing one or two strings fretted whilst bending another).

The only one that allows this is my PRS CE24. How? I'm d@amned if I know. It has survived so far.

Floyd Rose offers tuning stability, but they affect your set up. In fact they are a part of your set up. For that reason you need to take a lot of care restringing or changing tuning.

gringopig

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drpbier

Lots of helpful info, thanks all!

digitalkettle

gringopig said:

The jaguar/Jazzmaster tremelo is a masterful design of poise and balance with a rocking bridge pivoting on genuine unicorn horn that will allow gentle and soothing undulations which can cause spontaneous smiling and joy. It never goes out of tune and the bar is nice and long to allow pinkie control of those sweet sweet undulations. The best design ever!

I do like a trem (or vib...whatever) but I only recently got hold of a Jaguar. One Staytrem bridge (it already has the arm upgrade) and some fiddling later, it’s now my favourite type of wobbleage.

gringopig

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meltedbuzzbox

gringopig said:

digitalkettle said:

gringopig said:

The jaguar/Jazzmaster tremelo is a masterful design of poise and balance with a rocking bridge pivoting on genuine unicorn horn that will allow gentle and soothing undulations which can cause spontaneous smiling and joy. It never goes out of tune and the bar is nice and long to allow pinkie control of those sweet sweet undulations. The best design ever!

I do like a trem (or vib...whatever) but I only recently got hold of a Jaguar. One Staytrem bridge (it already has the arm upgrade) and some fiddling later, it’s now my favourite type of wobbleage.

Helps if you have a good amount of shimming in the neck pocket too as all JM/Jags should have to get the break angle. 

That's just not true. 

gringopig

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digitalkettle

Johnny Marr sig!

HarrySeven

Kahler Pro, FTW!

One of my all-time fave vibrato units...

dogload

ICBM said:

Winny_Pooh said:

The biggest bigsby issue is that they are usually installed on 3 a side headstock guitars with binding nut angles. Mind you, that aside, with the bridge itself also adding friction it'll never stay in tune as much as a strat trem.

I do find that they easily do a more subtle vibrato that is nicer for chords. 

JM trems are technically more stable as they are on 6 in line heastock guitars and the rocking bridge helps string sticking vs shitty tune o matics.

This is exactly right, which is why a *proper* Bigsby Tele with the Jazzmaster bridge, as well as the straight string pull, stays in tune perfectly - it's not the Bigsby which causes trouble.

If you don't have a rocking bridge, a roller bridge works well too.

Quite right. 
I have roller bridges on all my Bigsby'd guitars and as long as you keep your nut lubricated (oo-er missus, etc.) there is minimal tuning instability. It is something that you need to keep on top of though.
Another Bigsby factor is the spring strength - different springs return different responses, from stiff to spongy. 

ICBM

gringopig said:

Have you ever seen a jag or JM without a shim?

No, the bridge is too high to allow it - but you don’t need a huge one. When I had my ‘65 Jag it was set up with a single 1/32” fibre shim, with no mute under the bridge. It stayed in tune better like that than when I put the mute back on and had to shim it higher - actually better than any other guitar I’ve used live, including hardtails.

(I’ve never gigged with a Floyd, those are truly rock-solid.)