Another "Which multi?" (or even "Should I multi?")

Snags

I keep getting my head turned by the idea of multi-FX.

Lugging the PT Novo 32 about yesterday because I knew I was going to need a little bit of most things on it reminded me that a) it's good fun having access to all my toys, not just the ones on my basics board and b) it's large, heavy, and awkward in confined space.

However, in the modern world I have no idea what to look at. Budget is limited mostly be a sense of "prudence/being able to justify it for my use" (amateur musician who doesn't really need any of this stuff) rather than "can't currently afford it".

In terms of effects most likely to be used, I'd be after half reasonable:

- overdrive*
- distortion
- delay (ideally the ability to have more than one in a patch)
- flanger
- phaser
- wah
- (tuner)

Anything else is a bonus. Don't currently need amp modelling, cab emulation etc.

*I tend to have two channel amps, so could use amp overdrive but that's then another pedal/cable to sort out, as generally where this would be used at the moment it's mostly clean with the odd bit of dirt, rather than rocking out all the time.

The "pros" I'm looking for are:

- reduced weight
- reduced floorspace
- pre-defined "standard" patches to cover most situations (as in, ones I'll make, not the factory presets)
- easy bank/patch selection
- the ability to have the same effects but with different settings in different patches (one of the huge pros of a multi AFAICS)
- BONUS: the ability to switch a specific effect in/out within a patch (e.g. a nice clean delay patch with the option to add in overdrive or boost on the fly without banking up, changing patch etc.)
- BONUS: a looper

The "cons" I would like to minimise are:

- being stuck with whatever's configured without a complex re-programming exercise (e.g. the loss of the easy on-the-fly tweak with a single pedal)
- something so complex I spend the next 3 months learning how to use it/pissing about creating patches I'm never actually going to use, instead of actually playing the guitar
- needing to mortgage the house or sell a kidney to buy it

Right now I'm not fussed about recording, direct out to DAW etc. etc. and probably never will be, realistically.

I'm thinking if I can find the right thing then it might be worth getting something to play with for a bit that I can either sell on with minimal loss of I don't get on with it, or can retrospectively largely fund by selling off the majority of what's currently on the Novo 32 and the board/flight case itself.

I keep flirting with ICBM's much-beloved ME50 but am not sure that necessarily covers all the 'pro' bases I'm after.

Roland

You’re never going to be able to answer your question by thinking about it. Get a second hand unit from the Classifieds. Give yourself six months to get used to it. If it works then good. If it doesn’t work then sell it on for little less than you paid for it.

Snags

Yeah - it's more a question of which one to get, as I'm not too sure on the pros and cons between the vast array that are out there.

Boss? GT1? GT1000?
Helix?
Fractal?
Assorted others?

545454

I was using a Zoom G3XN aiming for most of the Pros you listed there. I don't use many effects at once so the smaller unit suited me fine - I reckon the G5N would be better for a bit more flexibility though. I tended to run a standard patch with one pedal for drive, 2 for different modulations and the expression pedal set to delay or wah. 

Easy enough to tweak on the fly, multiple versions of the same effect in one patch if you like. The main criticism seems to be the interface as there's a bit of a learning curve - I think for building whole patches, the Tonelib software was really useful, but once you get used to the scrolling layout of the chain, it's easy enough to amend. The ODs and distortions did require some tweaking, but the amp sims are pretty decent so I made use of them quite a lot. 

I did try a Boss ME 80 for a bit too - it would give you the option of multiple delays too and the interface is brilliant. 

Beexter

HX Effects ticks all your boxes, can switch channels on your amp and has the most intuitive interface I've come across. 

Roland

Snags said:

Yeah - it's more a question of which one to get, as I'm not too sure on the pros and cons between the vast array that are out there.

Boss? GT1? GT1000?
Helix?
Fractal?
Assorted others?

Fractal. Capable of multiple routings, and arguably the best sound. If you only want FX then it’s not necessarily the most expensive because you can pick up an older Standard or Ultra model for less than a Helix. Aside from the reverb algorithm and tri-chorus these older units have the same FX as the recent ones.

Helix. The new boy on the block. Sound is not quite up to the Fractal, but most people wouldn’t notice. No one will notice in a band mix. You can pick up second hand ones from people who tried but didn’t like.

Boss. Cheap. The multiFX don’t sound the same as Boss stomp boxes. Loads to chose from ME50, GT8, GT10, GTxxx.

Your biggest issue is the time you need to spend with it. If you cost your time at minimum wage rates then expect to spend more in time than buying the unit. When I got a GT-8 it took me six months before I was satisfied that I was getting the best out of it. 

Snags

Thanks all.

Looks like I'll do some patient hunting for either the HX FX or an older Fractal then.

The time thing I get - when I started out I had a few multi units as an economic way to get to play with different effects. I appreciate there'll be some learning to do, and I'm happy with that as long as it's a "once learnt you can do it" rather than "spend my life constantly fiddling". And I appreciate that quite a lot of the latter is down to personal self-control!

vasselmeyer

You could probably pick up a Line 6 M9 for very little these days. These were on may pro's boards a few years ago including Pete Thorn and Phil X. Monstrously easy to understand.

PolarityMan

A multi will definitely do what you want, the success of your use is going to depend on if you find the workflow too much effort. You mentioned about complex reprogamming etc.

Multi-s are not hard to program but some people just don't like even very simple workflows and prefer physical switches and buttons.Personally even back in theys of single line 12 character displays on multi-fx pedals I never found them hard and suspect those who complain are just old dogs who cant learn new tricks

If you can use a phone you can use a helix

ICBM

Snags said:

The "pros" I'm looking for are:

- reduced weight
- reduced floorspace
- pre-defined "standard" patches to cover most situations (as in, ones I'll make, not the factory presets)
- easy bank/patch selection
- the ability to have the same effects but with different settings in different patches (one of the huge pros of a multi AFAICS)
- BONUS: the ability to switch a specific effect in/out within a patch (e.g. a nice clean delay patch with the option to add in overdrive or boost on the fly without banking up, changing patch etc.)
- BONUS: a looper

I keep flirting with ICBM's much-beloved ME50 but am not sure that necessarily covers all the 'pro' bases I'm after.

It fails on both your 'bonus' points, unfortunately.

The biggest limitation of the ME-50 for me is the inability to switch in/out individual effects from a programmed patch - switching to Manual brings in a single, separate set of effects which is wherever the knobs are set.

And no looper, which is why I was trying the RC-30...

Roland said:

Boss. Cheap. The multiFX don’t sound the same as Boss stomp boxes. Loads to chose from ME50, GT8, GT10, GTxxx.

Yes they do - at least in the ME-50. Actually, slightly better! This is exactly why I sold off my analogue pedalboard... I exhaustively A/B'd the two, and the ME-50 was not only able to nail the sounds of all* my analogue effects, it actually sounded slightly better, as well as being less noisy.

(*Apart from the OC-2 and DM-2, but that's because the ME-50 was actually too good - it doesn't have the cool glitchiness of the OC or the grainy self-oscillation capability of the DM.)

TheBigDipper

I've successfully converted over to an HX FX into an AMP1. The AMP1 has four different preamp voicings which are MIDI-controllable from the HX and I don't need to use overdrives to make a clean amp "crunchy" - just change channels. I'm using 4 cable method in a fairly standard way. The reason I'm explaining about the AMP1 usage is many HX users don't like the overdrives or distortions and prefer to use their old pedals for that and the HX for their "in the FX loop" effects. which is one way of using the HX anyway, it's your choice. However, the HX can change amp channels as part of loading a preset, so if your amp can do it...  Personally, I don't use much distortion apart from what the amp delivers, so I'm not too fussy about it and generally use channel switching on the amp, boosts, or fuzz into the clean channel. 

Most of the effects are decent rather than stellar, but sound good at onstage levels in the band mix. It's a fine compromise for live performance IMHO. Others will disagree, as is their right. Each preset has 4 "snapshots" (other manufacturers call them "scenes") where you don't reload the effects into the DSP but do have different ones on/off or different parameter values - it permits seamless changes and maintains trails from reverbs or delays. You can also use the HX as a 'virtual' pedal board and manually turn effects on and off. I do that a lot outside of actually performing onstage and then keep sounds I like as patches for future use. 

On the fly changes can be achieved without too much trouble, but it's not the same as twiddling a knob on a box. 

The tuner is fine and the looper meets my simple needs. 

munckee

@icbm I'm utterly green about multi effects, is a patch something you set with various sounds together, OD, Delay etc - ie does the limitation you are referring to only apply if you want to set your own parameters - if you wanted the effect to be a simple pedal board to hit the pedal to add OD and then pedal 2 for delay etc does that limitation not apply? 

ICBM

munckee said:

@icbm I'm utterly green about multi effects, is a patch something you set with various sounds together, OD, Delay etc - ie does the limitation you are referring to only apply if you want to set your own parameters - if you wanted the effect to be a simple pedal board to hit the pedal to add OD and then pedal 2 for delay etc does that limitation not apply? 

 A patch is a saved snapshot of a set of effects and settings. Each of the three main 'blocks' (overdrive/distortion, modulation, and delay) can have a different model chosen, with its own parameters, and the whole thing saved as a single sound.

'Manual' mode operates as a simple pedalboard, which does exactly what you describe - it's like having three pedals on a board, and each can only be set to one sound. (Plus a wah pedal, compressor and reverb, which are separate.)

I always use it in Manual, so there's no programming involved at all, you just use it like three pedals. The limitation is that if you want to switch from say a phaser to a tremolo, or a different type of distortion, you have to bend down, turn the 'mode' knob, and then set the other knobs how you want.

But in that mode, it's unquestionably the simplest multi-FX to use I can think of, if you don't count the really basic ones that are essentially separate pedals in one large casing.

TheBigDipper

One huge advantage of MultiFX boxes like the HX (to me, anyway) is that a traditional pedalboard can be really hard to gain stage properly unless you use a switching product like a GigRig. Or extra pedals to manage the volume. By that, I mean...  imagine your favourite drive pedal sounds stellar when it's really, really loud - but that makes it too loud for the rest of your sounds and totally unusable as a result. With an MFX you can usually put a volume/gain effect next in the chain and turn the output from the drive down so it matches the volume of your other sounds. In one preset you might want -6dB, in another -9dB, and you can do that easily. 

munckee

ICBM said:

munckee said:

@icbm I'm utterly green about multi effects, is a patch something you set with various sounds together, OD, Delay etc - ie does the limitation you are referring to only apply if you want to set your own parameters - if you wanted the effect to be a simple pedal board to hit the pedal to add OD and then pedal 2 for delay etc does that limitation not apply? 

 A patch is a saved snapshot of a set of effects and settings. Each of the three main 'blocks' (overdrive/distortion, modulation, and delay) can have a different model chosen, with its own parameters, and the whole thing saved as a single sound.

'Manual' mode operates as a simple pedalboard, which does exactly what you describe - it's like having three pedals on a board, and each can only be set to one sound. (Plus a wah pedal, compressor and reverb, which are separate.)

I always use it in Manual, so there's no programming involved at all, you just use it like three pedals. The limitation is that if you want to switch from say a phaser to a tremolo, or a different type of distortion, you have to bend down, turn the 'mode' knob, and then set the other knobs how you want.

But in that mode, it's unquestionably the simplest multi-FX to use I can think of, if you don't count the really basic ones that are essentially separate pedals in one large casing.

Thanks @Icbm in that case the ME-50 sounds very interesting.

Buy one of them Pete so I can try it : )

Snags

@munckee I've had things like the ME-50 in the past, but poverty models. In my younger years I went through various Korg Toneworks units. I think if I pony up for something again it will be a bit flasher (although I do like the basic simplicity of the ME-50 and am watching a few on fleabay).

Next time you can make a Herts jam if I can be arsed I'll bring down my big board. That has a simple loop switcher on it which gives you a similar thing - essentially you can turn multiple pedals on/off with a single switch. Where a multi scores over that is that as well as turning different combinations of pedals on together, you can also have different settings on the same 'pedal' between patches, which you can't do with physical pedals (unless they're midi-enabled and far more expensive than my poverty-mode playing requires).

@mrkb often brings his Helix (or AxeFX, I forget) which does the posh stuff. He might let you try to break it.

mrkb

Snags said:

@munckee I've had things like the ME-50 in the past, but poverty models. In my younger years I went through various Korg Toneworks units. I think if I pony up for something again it will be a bit flasher (although I do like the basic simplicity of the ME-50 and am watching a few on fleabay).

Next time you can make a Herts jam if I can be arsed I'll bring down my big board. That has a simple loop switcher on it which gives you a similar thing - essentially you can turn multiple pedals on/off with a single switch. Where a multi scores over that is that as well as turning different combinations of pedals on together, you can also have different settings on the same 'pedal' between patches, which you can't do with physical pedals (unless they're midi-enabled and far more expensive than my poverty-mode playing requires).

@mrkb often brings his Helix (or AxeFX, I forget) which does the posh stuff. He might let you try to break it.

I’ve got a Fractal AxeFXIII, Fractal AxeFX II (which is about go appear in the classifieds), Fractal AX8 and Atomic Amplifire 3 (which is about to appear in the classifieds). Which do you want a demo of on Sunday? oh and a Line6 HD500 (which is about to appear in the classifieds)

mrkb

There’s a Fractal FX8 in the classifieds that I’d go for if I wanted a effects only solution.

munckee

mrkb said:

Snags said:

@munckee I've had things like the ME-50 in the past, but poverty models. In my younger years I went through various Korg Toneworks units. I think if I pony up for something again it will be a bit flasher (although I do like the basic simplicity of the ME-50 and am watching a few on fleabay).

Next time you can make a Herts jam if I can be arsed I'll bring down my big board. That has a simple loop switcher on it which gives you a similar thing - essentially you can turn multiple pedals on/off with a single switch. Where a multi scores over that is that as well as turning different combinations of pedals on together, you can also have different settings on the same 'pedal' between patches, which you can't do with physical pedals (unless they're midi-enabled and far more expensive than my poverty-mode playing requires).

@mrkb often brings his Helix (or AxeFX, I forget) which does the posh stuff. He might let you try to break it.

I’ve got a Fractal AxeFXIII, Fractal AxeFX II (which is about go appear in the classifieds), Fractal AX8 and Atomic Amplifire 3 (which is about to appear in the classifieds). Which do you want a demo of on Sunday? oh and a Line6 HD500 (which is about to appear in the classifieds)

I'm not there Sunday sadly as Pete stiffed me with the dates (not really : )  I'm allergic to complicated technology, the boss sounds like a good solution if the sound quality matches boss pedals.  I only really use overdrive, compressor, reverb and tremolo.  If all that comes in a single box and I can play with a wah or delay from time to time might suit me.

monquixote

I've been around this loop a few times and honestly pedals are just more fun and interactive.

I'd just simplify your board to what you really need.

ICBM

munckee said:

I'm allergic to complicated technology, the boss sounds like a good solution if the sound quality matches boss pedals.  I only really use overdrive, compressor, reverb and tremolo.  If all that comes in a single box and I can play with a wah or delay from time to time might suit me.

It's ideal for that, with two very minor reservations...

A couple of the best sounds in the OD module are with the 'Variation' button engaged. This is one of the only things the unit *doesn't* remember when the power is switched off... if you use one of them it's easy to forget to re-enable it every time and think "why doesn't this sound right?", until you remember .

The reverb sounds good, but the adjustment is limited to a single knob which controls both the type of reverb and the depth, so it's fiddly to set just right because each setting goes from off to too much in a fraction of the full turn.

There's also the usual multi-FX quirk that the wah pedal automatically becomes a volume pedal when the wah is turned off, so you need to remember to always check it's toe-down when you start or you wonder where your volume has gone .