How to Lift DI'd Electric guitar level further

midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
Hello all
Looking for a little advice please
My Guitar path is Epiphone Les paul to Zoom G2 , then DI'd into the PA.
Can i lift the level of this signal with a DI box as currently my Jack input is pretty much "flat out"?
Or is it the issue that i need to convert the signal to balanced xlr?
Anyone suggest a succinct solution?
I was pondering the "bonkers" idea of maybe sending my guitar signal to a second channel to lift the level.
A second solution is a quiter drummer but not an issue that i've successfully approached in the past !
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Comments

  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 330

    Hi

    When you say that your jack input is flat out I assume that you mean that the gain control on the mixer is turned fully clockwise (if the mixer even has a gain control for line level signals)?

    If you are getting a healthy signal into the desk but you can't hear over the drummer then either your PA isn't powerful enough or your drummer is too loud - or, you need to consider your eq.  You hay have a very full sound that is great in isolation but just doesn't work in the context of a full mix.

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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 3942
    Use a short lead from the Zoom to a DI box then balanced output form that into the mixer. That should work fine. 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    Musicwolf said:

    Hi

    When you say that your jack input is flat out I assume that you mean that the gain control on the mixer is turned fully clockwise (if the mixer even has a gain control for line level signals)?

    If you are getting a healthy signal into the desk but you can't hear over the drummer then either your PA isn't powerful enough or your drummer is too loud - or, you need to consider your eq.  You hay have a very full sound that is great in isolation but just doesn't work in the context of a full mix.

    Yeah my trim is at 4/5 o'clock and channel fader almost at the top. My EQ is flat.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 39491
    The jack inputs on a PA are normally designed for line level not instrument level, so you'll need to either use a DI box into the balanced input, or a simple line booster into the jack.

    Some PAs have a dedicated high-impedance input on one or two channels designed for acoustic instruments, which will have more gain available, so if there is one try that first.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 330
    Yeah my trim is at 4/5 o'clock and channel fader almost at the top. My EQ is flat.
    What sort of metering does the desk have?  With just the guitar going through are you getting a decent reading (say about -6dB)?  You don't want to be pushing the signal into clipping trying to make up for a lack of umph in your PA rig
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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    Musicwolf said:
    Yeah my trim is at 4/5 o'clock and channel fader almost at the top. My EQ is flat.
    What sort of metering does the desk have?  With just the guitar going through are you getting a decent reading (say about -6dB)?  You don't want to be pushing the signal into clipping trying to make up for a lack of umph in your PA rig
    Thanks for the Tip - i'll have a look tonight at the gig - i'm that busy trying to get a sound tbh i never noticed...
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 49
    surely the G2 is putting out a line level signal?, wouldn't the output level of the G2 be able to give a hot enough signal? maybe there is a mic/line selector on the PA which isnt in the right place. I did a line out of my pedalboard using distortion pedals into a Mooer Radar, just for a giggle once, easily a hot enough signal for the line in on the PA. genuinely interested in the solutions here.

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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    Hi again - checked the Zoom G2 and it was set to PA setting rather than Guitar Amp which i think is correct. On the friday gig everything was pretty much flat out Gain/Trim and channel.
    I would conclude that i am a terrible sound engineer other than for the fact i got quite a good vocal sound (for myself!).
    For the next gig on saturday i went back through the zoom to see if i could tweak it.
    Managed to find 10% gain on a couple of patches which created a "slight" improvement in the level.
    i've ordered a passive DI box to see if that can lift the guitar single any further for the next outing in a couple of weeks
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  • revsorgrevsorg Frets: 650
    Is the low volume level problem affecting both your foldback and front of house?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 39491
    andy_k said:
    surely the G2 is putting out a line level signal?

    Unlikely, it will be instrument-level even if it's speaker-emulated. The primary function is to go into a guitar amp, so it won't be louder than that.

    If the PA input is designed for actual line inputs rather than instruments and isn't switchable then it won't be loud enough.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    @revsorg - both foldback and foh are effected - the aux send feeds a digital chevin a500 which drives 2 1x15 wedges with horns. The FOH is Bass bins  peavey hisys 15 with passive xover - mid/top is 1x12s with horn. Amp is crown xt.
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  • revsorgrevsorg Frets: 650
    What mixer are you using?
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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    @revsorg Mackie CFX12
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  • revsorgrevsorg Frets: 650
    The MK II version? (I've no idea whether the version makes any difference, I'm just being nosey)

    Agreeing with ICBM and your purchase of a DI box - when you plug the XLR into one of those mic inputs I reckon you'll get all the input gain you need.

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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    @revsorg ;
    this is almost  the one - only have sub1/2 and sub 4 is the monitor mix on my version so maybe the mark 1

    gtr in channel 4 - the trim is at 4.30pm - the fader is at about +6
    my vocal in ch 1 trim at 12pm and fader at unity gain but obviously in the balanced xlr input
    DI box arrives tomorrow - i will report back
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  • revsorgrevsorg Frets: 650
    @midiman1962 - how did this work out for you?

    I'm keen to know because I find myself in a strangely similar predicament on Sunday 30th...
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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    Update to this thread -1 
    Gig saturday night , i tried to pass my guitar (Epi Les Paul ) through a Behringer DI box, the DI400
    This induced a horrendous buzz so had to be abandoned - didn't have time to investigate further as time was short (as usual).
    At rehearsal with a different quitar (Pacifica) and the same mixer i still had to run all flat out.
    I've got an old Midiman powered line mixer and i am going to see if that makes any difference compared to the "Passive" DI box.
    One thing i am noticing is that a guitar sound which isn't perceptably loud enough at the start of the night , at the end of the night is "drilling me" - i also noticed this in the rehearsal

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  • FezFez Frets: 224
    Buzz could well be a ground loop. DI boxes usually have a ground lift switch. Our Mackie mixer is also v1 I think and that has an instrument setting on channel 1 I have often put electro acoustics on that and they have had plenty of level. 
    Don't touch that dial.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 39491
    Update to this thread -1 
    Gig saturday night , i tried to pass my guitar (Epi Les Paul ) through a Behringer DI box, the DI400
    This induced a horrendous buzz so had to be abandoned - didn't have time to investigate further as time was short (as usual).
    At rehearsal with a different quitar (Pacifica) and the same mixer i still had to run all flat out.
    Were you still using the Zoom, or the electric guitar straight into passive DI box? That won't work well - the guitar impedance is too high to properly drive a passive box and the low-impedance cable. It should be OK with the Zoom though.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    Updates :-1: 
    @ICBM when i had terrible buzz routing was guitar to zoom g2 to passive di box to desk
    @Fez I haven't tried Channel 1 so i can so that's a great point i had not considered
    I'm pondering whether to stick a Blackstar Fly 3 in the signal chain as it has a mixer out and is small running on batteries if required ? any thoughts?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 39491
    edited July 1

    @ICBM when i had terrible buzz routing was guitar to zoom g2 to passive di box to desk
    @Fez I haven't tried Channel 1 so i can so that's a great point i had not considered
    I'm pondering whether to stick a Blackstar Fly 3 in the signal chain as it has a mixer out and is small running on batteries if required ? any thoughts?
    Does the DI box have an earth lift switch? If so you need it in the non-lift position. If it doesn't have a switch then the chances are it's permanently lifted, so it won't work properly for this - the earth lift is to prevent loops when used between an earthed amp and the desk, but an electric guitar needs to be connected to earth to eliminate noise.

    I'm pretty sure the Blackstar doesn't have an earthed power supply, it's a low-voltage DC one, so that probably won't help either - although, if you can run the headphone output of the Fly (which is also speaker-emulated) directly to the line input of the desk *not* via the DI box - you'll need a 3.5mm to 1/4" cable for that - it may work.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ricorico Frets: 1017
    Is it worth trying a traditional amp?
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  • midiman1962midiman1962 Frets: 7
    I’ve moved to a boss gt1 fx now and that seems to be better at least in the rehearsal room so far with a seemingly louder signal
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