Help me with wiring and setting up...mainly Helix owners.

Godlykepower

LENGTHY POST WARNING!

I’ve got a Helix LT, which I love, but I am in no way fully exploring what it is capable of doing...mainly because I don’t understand the setup process properly.

I’ve been posting recently about getting a second amp with just a few select pedals in front, as a stripped down version of my Helix going into my Blackstar HT20 head and cab that I’ve been using for quite a while now.

Then I thought, never mind the faff of unplugging and re-setting up the Helix again if I want a change from individual pedals...why not just get some good pedals in front of the Blackstar?

I started fiddling this morning - unplugged the Helix and put the guitar straight into the amp. Lovely clean sound, drive could use some tweaking. I then incorporated my Trio+ looper pedal...I can record stuff, but when I switch channels on the amp, it distorts the clean sound I’ve just recorded. So, I ran it through the effects loop - fixes it, but there is a marked difference in volume. Why?

I’ve normally got the Helix set up using 4 cables...with cables going into send and return - I’ve managed to tweak my commonly used patches, and it sounds great, but I still think I’m missing something - the drums on the looper sound more dull somehow, and the volume is lower, and I can’t engage the drive channel on the amp.

You could argue that if I’m happy with some of the sounds I’m getting, don’t worry about it, but I’d like to understand the setup process better to use more of the Helix’s functionality.

I then tried just running the guitar into the Helix, straight into the amp on clean - with a bit of volume tweaking, it sounds great.

Am I right in saying that if I just run it this way WITH NO AMP MODELS IN THE CHAIN, that I am essentially using the Helix like a pedalboard?

When I move to a preset that DOES have amp models on it, it sounds different (sometimes okay, sometimes crap) to when it’s set up with the 4 cable method.

I’m thinking it’s got something to do with pre and power amps, and how the effects loop works in relation to those?

How am I supposed to wire up the Helix optimally, so that I can create a patch WITH amp models, straight into my amps clean channel? Am I supposed to be using the send/return blocks in the signal path somewhere?

Please explain in layman’s terms/like I’m a child!

UnclePsychosis

Ok, I'll try to explain, hopefully without being patronising!

A traditional guitar amp contains three primary sections:

A preamp (the bit that shapes the tone) 
A poweramp (makes everything loud enough) 
The speakers. 

Amp "combos" contain all three.
Amp "heads" contain just the pre and power amps. 
Guitar "cabs" (cabinets) are normally just the speakers.
It is possible (but less common) to buy entirely separate preamps and power amps. 

If an amp has an FX Loop then it inserts the FX between the preamp and the power amp. "FX send" is the output from the preamp and "fx return" is the input to the poweramp. 

With the helix, when it comes to amp blocks you can have emulations of preamp (only), amp (preamp+poweramp), amp+cab (preamp, poweramp, cabinet) and cabinet (only). 

If you want to use helix "as an amp" with a real amp that has an FX loop then you'll probably have the most success by running a preamp block on the helix and feeding it into the real poweramp of your HT20 via the FX return. You can add effects "in the loop" between the preamp block and the HT20 if you want to.

UnclePsychosis

This picture may help

https://line6.com/media/ips/uploads/monthly_2018_11/178651983_4cablemethodV2.JPG.21157b3f451823d25326e1b1293709b4.JPG

Godlykepower

Thank you for your response, not patronising at all.

On my old Boss GT100, there was a way of putting some effects in front of the amp (comp, drive etc.), and some through the effects loop (delay, reverb etc) later on in the chain.

Do I have to do something special to the Helix to achieve this, or does it know to route certain effects automatically? Or does it not make much of a difference?

I’ve been looking at some presets on it this evening, and have tried changing an ‘amp + cab’ block to ‘preamp’ - it’s changing the sound, but apart from a change in volume, I’m not 100% certain what I’m doing to the signal chain.

Godlykepower

I think this picture is showing what I’m poorly trying to explain:

https://line6.com/support/topic/37106-helix-floor-into-amp-using-helixs-effects-only/

Godlykepower

Ah, that’s the picture in the link above! Do I put something in the Helix signal chain to get pre and post FX? I’m guessing so from the little blue box titles ‘loop’ in the top picture.

UnclePsychosis

If you want to do pre/post effects using helix and a real amp FX loop then you need to use Send/Return blocks in Helix to tell it where the insert points are. 

There will be lots of presets for Helix that do this, its all the "4CM" ones.

What you have to decide (at all times) is whether you are using your amps own preamp or whether you're using a helix amp model. 

If you're using your own amp preamp, then you just need to use a traditional 4CM method. If you're not wanting to use your amps own preamp then you need to plug into the FX return of your HT20, not the guitar input. You can switch between these two on the fly by switching the relevant sends on and off. 

This video may help:

Godlykepower

Thank you for all this, @UnclePsychosis, I really do appreciate it.

I’m going to tackle what you’ve said in your last post tomorrow, as I think I’ve cracked it with sending delay and reverb through the FX loop!

What is making the wiring diagram extra tricky for me to follow, is that I’m running 4CM...but also have a looper/drum thing in there too!

Does this sound right to you:

My original signal chain was Guitar - Wah - OD - OD - OD - Delay - Reverb - Output. All of this was on Signal path 1A.

What I’ve just done, is run path 1A into 2A, so that 1A has Guitar, Wah and 3 overdrives.....then path 2A has an FX Loop block, then delay and reverb, then to output.

Does that sound right, or do I somehow have to bring the signal back to path 1A before output?

It sounds a tiny bit brighter in the second scenario, and I’ve got to crank the Helix volume from about 2...to halfway, but I’m sure I could fiddle with amp levels if the signal paths are looking right.

UnclePsychosis

Not sure on the dual paths thing. I've got a stomp, not a full fat Helix so its slightly different. 

If you take a look at how any of the 4CM presets are set up it should give you some clues. 

Godlykepower

How can you tell if a preset is setup as 4CM?

UnclePsychosis

On the stomp, the factory presets have a prefix in the name that tells you what they do.

FX is effects only
BAS: is a bass preset
4CM: is for 4CM

I'd be surprised if the Helix ones aren't exactly the same. 

Godlykepower

I’ve seen some that have BAS in the name, but not noticed anything else. It’s probably there, I’m just being a spanner.

....I feel like I’ve gone really, really far down a rabbit hole here!

UnclePsychosis

Google suggests you want to look in the Templates setlist and there's 4CM in there. 

Vaiai

Go to https://www.youtube.com/user/Richiesos/videos Richie shows you how to use it with an amp, without, in 4CM in FRFR in any format you can think of in fact - including how to use external pedals with it  
To do what you want - you need 4CM - and as said above there is one in the Templates group - follow the wiring diagram and then choose that preset - you'll be able to hear if you have FX in the right place. Richie cover sit all tho - invaluable for me when I got mine a few years ago - and still using it every week

Vaiai

I used to keep this on my phone in the early days  
4CM
Guitar to Helix Guitar In
Helix Send - Amp In
Helix Return - Amp Send
Helix 1/4 Out - Amp Return