Using attenuator in band situation

billando

I have had many attenuators from the cheapest to the most expensive. Playing on my own at band volumes it sounds great but i find in a band context alongside another guitarist who doesn't use an attenuator i sound weak in the mix. More than "two clicks" with any attenuator leads to this i feel. Does anyone else find this?

ICBM

It's just loss of volume and headroom for dynamics. Two clicks on most attenuators is about -6dB, which is like using a quarter of the amp power... three clicks is -9dB, or an eighth of the power, so if you're using a 50W amp it has just effectively become a 6W amp. Not surprising it now sounds weak in the mix if the other guy is even using a 15W amp unattenuated.

steven70

That's interesting- I didn't realize a few dBs had that much impact- I guess it's non linear (??)
Explains why just 3dB can render a couple of my amps 'a bit too quiet' for loud situations...
Also worth considering the loss of top end - whether that is subjective I don't know, but any attenuation in my experience kills some top end.

Maybe less attenuation, less volume on the amp and a bit of gain from a pedal would help.

steven70

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billando

For those that use 100 or 50w amps do you not use attenuators to keep the punch and attack of the high powered amp if it's a master volume? I'm not really a fan of el84 amps. 

ICBM

steven70 said:

That's interesting- I didn't realize a few dBs had that much impact- I guess it's non linear (??)

Yes - logarithmic.

It's compounded by the fact that in a mix of nearly equally loud sounds, the loudest sound dominates and the quietest tend to disappear, so a change that isn't that obvious in isolation - 3dB is often said to be about the smallest change you can reliably tell, without a comparative reference - can make the difference between too loud and too quiet when it's competing with other similar-volume sounds... which of course is exactly what a good band mix is.

One of the best attenuators for fixing this is the Dr.Z Airbrake, which not only has very small steps (other than the 'bedroom' setting) compared to most attenuators - only 1.8dB each - they can be adjusted internally to be made even smaller if you want. For a stage-only attenuator, 1dB steps would probably not be excessive.

steven70 said:

Also worth considering the loss of top end - whether that is subjective I don't know, but any attenuation in my experience kills some top end.

It's largely a psycho-acoustic effect, but still real - due to the Fletcher-Munson Curve which describes how the frequency response of the ear varies with volume. Many attenuators have a slight amount of treble boost and/or bass boost to help get around this, some switchable.

Many attenuator makers suggest that you can set your amp to sound great and then dial the attenuator down so it sounds the same but at the right volume - this doesn't usually work. What you need to do is set the attenuator to the right volume *first*, then dial the amp in for that, which may mean more bass and treble.

steven70 said:

Maybe less attenuation, less volume on the amp and a bit of gain from a pedal would help.

It can do, yes. My experience is that trying to do all the volume reduction at one point in the system works less well than doing less at several points - as such, I've usually found that attenuators work better with master volume amps than non-master ones, which I know is contrary to the reason they were invented!

billando said:

For those that use 100 or 50w amps do you not use attenuators to keep the punch and attack of the high powered amp if it's a master volume? I'm not really a fan of el84 amps. 

Yes. I've usually found the best sounds by being able to get the master volume up to just where the 'good tone' kicks in, rather than cranking it all the way. Using both together makes it possible to get a *better* tone at *lower* volume than with either alone.

billando

Restarting an old thread here but earlier on it was discussed that reducing 3db makes an amp roughly half the wattage and 6db would be 1/4 the wattage hence making them less punchy.....ie a 50w amp could be like a 6w amp...using the fryette power station though (mine is 50w) should avoid this yes? Being that it is its own seperate 50w amp shouldnt it always have the punch of a 50w amp?