Another high street store gone

simonhpieman

Problems with retail:
- Staffed by people who don't care. Your one chance to differentiate yourself from online and you hire slovenly teenagers with no prior knowledge of your products and no incentive to sell more of it or be sucessful at it.
- Chains. Staff are paid less so shareholders and corporate management types can justify having jobs. Get businesses back in independent hands. Far too many middlemen. No bloating, no direction from above that might not be relevant to the local demographic. Let the shop owner live and die by their own ideas and tactics.
- Brexit/austerity/Tories in general.

riffpowers

Shame, my brother lived near there when he first moved south, I have the MIJ tokai breezysound and blues junior that he bought from there.

prowla

TheBigDipper said:

p90fool said:

<snip>

I agree, town centres have become so samey it's not worth trying to park. If you look above ground floor level our cities are unique and interesting, but retailers have effectively killed that at street level. 

Hopefully high street rents will crash when there are not enough surviving chain stores to occupy them, and smaller, one-off businesses will be able to move back in. 

Walking the arcades in Cardiff for example is a pleasant, interesting experience (though a little heavy on coffee shops), but out in the main shopping areas you could be in Exeter, Aberdeen or Ipswich, so why on earth does anyone bother?

My wife is an enthusiast about interesting buildings. She's been saying this for years and pointing it out to me - someone who has to be forced to look higher than the ground floor. Christchurch High Street is a classic example - interesting buildings but blighted by cheap unimaginative shop fronts that are not in keeping with the buildings they're in. 

High street "shopping" seems to be a leisure experience for most, these days. People might buy a coffee and cake, but rarely anything else. The ability to park (or not) dictates where drivers go and shop for their weekly groceries. For nearly all places, out-of-town shopping parks are where you find the generic supermarkets and clothing stores, not town centres. Large cities do have viable city centres, but the shoppers are often either people who work in the centre Mon-Fri, or tourists who are visiting. 

The Bournemouth-Christchurch-Poole conurbation (catchy, eh?) is bigger than the nearest city (Southampton) but all three towns have failing town centres and out-of-town competition that their respective councils (at the time) supported, so go figure... . 

Regarding rates, IIRC, business rates are set by central government, not the local council, so there's no opportunity for them to adjust the rates charged to a business on their high street to help them compete with out-of-town or Internet. And if they did, there'd be nothing to stop the landlords from increasing rents at renegotiation time because the retailer now has more income to play with. Which they may not get, and so the cycle continues with shops leaving the high street and being replaced by?.... 

Yes, I'll often go out and find the only things I've bought are a parking ticket, a latte, and maybe a cake.

Funnily enough, I'm debating heading down to the coast today for a stroll. The Chichester road with the antiques, the little arcade in Chichester with the record shop, the streets in Southsea.

NelsonP

Snags said:

I love all the "Oh it's not Brexit, it's online/high street decline" comments.

The Hollywood Music letter explicitly states that they had previously decent online outlets as well. They weren't just relying on footfall and local people. It might be nice to give the author some credit for knowing their own sales breakdowns, and also at what point they started to see everything tailing off across the board.

I'd agree that to some extent "Brexit" is a flag of convenience. But only as a shorthand for the way in which successive governments have screwed the economy with ever-more destructive policies and actions designed to appease/placate/appeal to a fairly small number of very economically right-wing interests, and in particular the way the Conservatives have been ready collectively to put party before country time and time again. If Brexit isn't the single neatest encapsulation of that, I don't know what is.

(And no, this isn't a party political rant, as such - I'm equally appalled by the tossers on the vanished centre and the left who have been so utterly ineffectual, to the point of active collusion, in countering the bullshit narrative of neo-liberal economics and all the detritus that goes with it).

If the online sales were really that good then you'd think keeping that business going. Who knows, maybe they are.

Brexit only partly to blame. Lots of other factors cited above too.

EricTheWeary

I have half an hour to waste in Nuneaton so I'm currently sat in Asda cafe with a ( not particularly good) latte. 
I could have ventured a few more hundred yards to the town centre but here I know I'll get free parking, clean toilets. British town centre parking is so often paying to squeeze into a crumbling multi storey, the public toilets ( if you can find them) are stopping off places for addicts and there are a sprinkling of charity shops, BandM Bargains, Primark and a Costa. I might pop in later just to see if I'm wrong but it's hard to feel motivated to go in to a town centre unless there is an alternative reason. 
Very impressive fountain thing on a roundabout outside Nuneaton, I'll give it that. 

There is too much retail space now and the shops that have money to invest tend to want shiny new premises so many high streets have a smart new end and a crumbling old end with little foot traffic in-between. It needs to become  cheap housing, offices - you can't have a housing crisis and yet leave half a town centre empty. Go to French or Dutch small towns and there is centralised housing, traffic calming, cafe culture, local shops. It doesn't have to be grim to live in a town centre. 

Better go.

Freebird

Music isn't what it used to be. Young people have other interests now, and music tends to be a background thing. When I was growing up everybody wanted to be in a band.

richh

Sad news of course, but in terms of what has brought this about and the demise of the high street shops, I'm not sure that the guys on this forum are a typical demographic?

I think there are quite a few of us in our mid 50's on here?  I am, and have to say that to go round the shops does not interest me in the slightest.  I've got the gear I need / want, and often find even the larger stores just have lots of the same old stuff.  Strats, Les Pauls, Teles, etc.  I was in Birmingham a week or two back, with an hour to kill before meeting somebody, and so made the effort to look at the new PMT store, with their 'largest wall of guitars in Europe'.  The staff there were all very friendly and helpful, but honestly nothing there of interest to me - just the same old.  Actually it was more a case of 'same new', as they had only one used guitar (late 70's Strat).

I'd much prefer somewhere like the Little Guitar Shop, where you never know what you might chance on.  And that's true for non music related shops also, for me at least.

But maybe for women, or younger guys, the experience of going round the shops still holds more attraction?

Also, for me, I'm far more likely to buy guitar stuff from the Fretboard anyway.

Still, best of luck to the guys who now need to find new employment.

jpfamps

TheBigDipper said:

p90fool said:

<snip>

I agree, town centres have become so samey it's not worth trying to park. If you look above ground floor level our cities are unique and interesting, but retailers have effectively killed that at street level. 

Hopefully high street rents will crash when there are not enough surviving chain stores to occupy them, and smaller, one-off businesses will be able to move back in. 

Walking the arcades in Cardiff for example is a pleasant, interesting experience (though a little heavy on coffee shops), but out in the main shopping areas you could be in Exeter, Aberdeen or Ipswich, so why on earth does anyone bother?

Regarding rates, IIRC, business rates are set by central government, not the local council, so there's no opportunity for them to adjust the rates charged to a business on their high street to help them compete with out-of-town or Internet. And if they did, there'd be nothing to stop the landlords from increasing rents at renegotiation time because the retailer now has more income to play with. Which they may not get, and so the cycle continues with shops leaving the high street and being replaced by?.... 

That's no longer the case. Local councils now retain a significant proportion of business rates, and have the opportunity to reduce the rates multiplier.

Rents are quite sticky as many businesses are on long leases. As it is rents for retail are falling, and the immediate future for retail landlords does not look rosy.

Greatape

EricTheWeary said:

I have half an hour to waste in Nuneaton so I'm currently sat in Asda cafe with a ( not particularly good) latte. 
I could have ventured a few more hundred yards to the town centre but here I know I'll get free parking, clean toilets. British town centre parking is so often paying to squeeze into a crumbling multi storey, the public toilets ( if you can find them) are stopping off places for addicts and there are a sprinkling of charity shops, BandM Bargains, Primark and a Costa. I might pop in later just to see if I'm wrong but it's hard to feel motivated to go in to a town centre unless there is an alternative reason. 
Very impressive fountain thing on a roundabout outside Nuneaton, I'll give it that. 

There is too much retail space now and the shops that have money to invest tend to want shiny new premises so many high streets have a smart new end and a crumbling old end with little foot traffic in-between. It needs to become  cheap housing, offices - you can't have a housing crisis and yet leave half a town centre empty. Go to French or Dutch small towns and there is centralised housing, traffic calming, cafe culture, local shops. It doesn't have to be grim to live in a town centre. 

Better go.

And yet councils still support developments creating more un-let-able retail premises, yet do precious little about making civic spaces genuinely welcoming and attractive. No grass areas/trees anywhere.

Fifty9

Three-ColourSunburst said:

fandango said:

Philly_Q said:

I don't know if Brexit is contributing to the death of the high street - it hasn't even happened yet - but I do wonder if there's a degree of anxiety about Brexit, maybe even subconsciously, which is curbing spending on "luxuries".

Try telling that to those who opened their wallets for Gibson R8’s and R9’s within the last year or so. No holding back there.

I would say that the 'R fest' has a lot more to do with human psychology than economics.

As the saying goes 'people can't resist a bargain' and research shows that, when faced with the prospect of getting a perceived 'bargain', many people all-but lose their ability to evaluate whether or not what is on offer is objectively good value or not (or even whether they can really afford it) with powerful psychological rewards associated with getting a 'bargain' becoming even more important than the financial aspects of the purchase.

For example, a 'bargain' price makes the buyer feel that they are in control of the transaction, rather that the seller (who is unable to demand the usual price); that they the sort of person who enjoys good fortune; that they are 'smart' consumers, and so on. Add in an element of peer-group reinforcement and a bit of competition for the 'best' buys and the 'R fest' looks not totally dissimilar to the rush of shoppers at a Black Friday sale!

So I bought one of the R8s last year. What made me actually do it was a combination of the post 2013/14 specs, my ability to afford it now (I couldn’t until now) and my preference for a gibson over other similar but not a gibson versions. It’s almost a year now and I don’t regret it and see it as an objective & rational purchasing decision to satisfy an emotional and irrational want

guitartango

Or is it that they cannot complete with the likes of Andertons, Peach, Coda, GAK and Richard's Guitars

Three-ColourSunburst

Fifty9 said:

So I bought one of the R8s last year. What made me actually do it was a combination of the post 2013/14 specs, my ability to afford it now (I couldn’t until now) and my preference for a gibson over other similar but not a gibson versions. It’s almost a year now and I don’t regret it and see it as an objective & rational purchasing decision to satisfy an emotional and irrational want

I agree about the emotional and irrational want thing (if emotion were not such an important factor in guitar purchase, then many would doubtless be as happy playing a Harley Benton as a Gibson) but are you really saying that the price-cut had no bearing on your decision to buy?  Would you still have bought one at list price if the clearance sale had not been on?

Philly_Q

guitartango said:

Or is it that they cannot complete with the likes of Andertons, Peach, Coda, GAK and Richard's Guitars

Nobody can compete with the Richard's Guitars shopping experience.

Fifty9

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Fifty9 said:

So I bought one of the R8s last year. What made me actually do it was a combination of the post 2013/14 specs, my ability to afford it now (I couldn’t until now) and my preference for a gibson over other similar but not a gibson versions. It’s almost a year now and I don’t regret it and see it as an objective & rational purchasing decision to satisfy an emotional and irrational want

I agree about the emotional and irrational want thing (if emotion were not such an important factor in guitar purchase, then many would doubtless be as happy playing a Harley Benton as a Gibson) but are you really saying that the price-cut had no bearing on your decision to buy?  Would you still have bought one at list price if the clearance sale had not been on?

No mate, im agreeing with you. I only bought it because of the price reduction and buying it at that price, because it was much cheaper, was a rational thing to do. Its the one I wanted (as opposed to the upgraded HB and even an R9) and I got a great, affordable deal on something I wanted for almost 30 years but never bought due to them being approximately 30-40% higher than I was willing to pay. Last year sorted that. But I'm no better player for it and frankly the tone I'd be able to wring out of it will not be objectively better, just 'different' to my 90s Korean copy. Different in a way I like.

Back to the main point of this thread however, I really don't see how the guitar shopping experience that I knew as a kid could possibly survive in this day & age. Personally, I almost never (R8 excepted) buy new gear so it doesnt affect me other than v limited options to browse and play stuff. HAving said that, I hope that when repopulation of town centres happens in earnest that commercial rents & rates crash with no national chains propping them up leaving room for the small guys to come back into the centres. 'Expereince' type shopping where trying & seeing before buying is important such as hobbies (guitars in our case), clothes, etc could afford to fit in alongside the cafes, bars & restaurants.

TheBigDipper

jpfamps said:

TheBigDipper said:

<snip>

Regarding rates, IIRC, business rates are set by central government, not the local council, so there's no opportunity for them to adjust the rates charged to a business on their high street to help them compete with out-of-town or Internet. And if they did, there'd be nothing to stop the landlords from increasing rents at renegotiation time because the retailer now has more income to play with. Which they may not get, and so the cycle continues with shops leaving the high street and being replaced by?.... 

That's no longer the case. Local councils now retain a significant proportion of business rates, and have the opportunity to reduce the rates multiplier.

Rents are quite sticky as many businesses are on long leases. As it is rents for retail are falling, and the immediate future for retail landlords does not look rosy.

I was of the belief that a council kept all its business rate income. The idea that they didn't was news to me, so I've just tried to find out a bit more and landed on the Local Government Association website. Here's what I gleaned from a superficial trawl.

Firstly, I found out that the existing position was that a local authority kept 50% of its business rate income and returned 50% to central government, who then redistributed it back to LAs as they saw fit in the form of central government grants.

Business premises with a rateable value of £12K or less are apparently exempt from business rates. Those at £12K to £15K may be able to get a discount. 

They seemed to think that the 2015 government promised to change things so that, by 2020, LAs kept all their income. That was apparently a manifesto pledge. They also seemed to imply that the 2017 government has never timetabled anything to make that happen. So, maybe you remember the promise and didn't know it hadn't happened yet. Or maybe I've gotten the wrong idea from what I've read.

Either way it doesn't change our shared view that retail is in trouble and the solution is unclear - or maybe even unwanted except by the retailers themselves. Christchurch is getting quite a few planning applications from landlords to turn retail property into residential at the moment. 

Groke

I live 10 miles from Hollywood Music, we bought our son his first electric (Squier VM Mustang) there when he was 11. He's now 16 and still plays the Mustang. However if we go guitar shop visiting it's a destination store like Coda or Andertons we head to. If it's strings etc we need it's either eBay or Amazon. Basically it's my fault  Hollywood Music has closed down.

TINMAN82

guitartango said:

Or is it that they cannot complete with the likes of Andertons, Peach, Coda, GAK and Richard's Guitars

I think this nails it. I enjoy the guitar shop experience and trips to GG in Glasgow or Edinburgh. Guitar buying should really lend itself to trying hands on. That said, of 6 guitars I’ve bought new over the past year, only 2 of them were bought in store and one of those has already been sold on as I couldn’t bond with it. Most peripheral kit, cables, strings, guitar books/dvds and even pedals are bought online from the likes of Andertons, GAK or others. I’d never heard of Hollywood music in terms of online presence before reading this.

thegummy

Freebird said:

Music isn't what it used to be. Young people have other interests now, and music tends to be a background thing. When I was growing up everybody wanted to be in a band.

And a lot of the young people who are in to making music will do so by downloading software rather than actually having to buy anything physical.

thegummy

simonhpieman said:

Problems with retail:
- Staffed by people who don't care. Your one chance to differentiate yourself from online and you hire slovenly teenagers with no prior knowledge of your products and no incentive to sell more of it or be sucessful at it.
- Chains. Staff are paid less so shareholders and corporate management types can justify having jobs. Get businesses back in independent hands. Far too many middlemen. No bloating, no direction from above that might not be relevant to the local demographic. Let the shop owner live and die by their own ideas and tactics.
- Brexit/austerity/Tories in general.

Years ago when South Park was still great it did an episode about this topic and it was completely spot on (as it usually was back then).

Basically comes down to the fact that, while a lot of people agree in theory that they'd prefer locally owned businesses, the prices and convenience of the huge chain companies is just too tempting to resist.

Rob1742

Massive changes on the High Street over the last 10-15 years. You’ve got to admire those retailers that were quick to adapt to the threat the changes posed.

Look at retailers like Guitar Guitar, Anderson’s and Peaches among others that trade successfully on the internet, and maintain their High Street presence.

i recently have purchased from Guitar Guitar both online and in store, and I really admire how they trade across both platforms.