Tuning on Ibanez S420 and S520 with floating bridge, and lack of spring tension wheel on S520

notonlybutalso

I notice the ibanez page doesn't list the 420 anymore so i guess its a toss up between the new model 520 with the edge trem or an older model 420 with the ZR. Personally i would go for the 420 just because of the better (in my opinion) trem. Apart from that they are no different, same pickups, same wood, the 420 has a wizard II neck as opposed to the wizard III of the 520 but spec wise (if the 420 is from 2010 onwards) they are identical. So it boils down to which trem you prefer 

Richardj

Again, for me personally, the essence of the S series is the ZR trem. For the cost of a new 520 it could well be worth seeking out an old stock or even slightly used higher model.  There is always (ahem!) a nice 970 in the classifieds

Also a very nice Prestige from @hubobulous.

hubobulous

@Richardj - thanks for the mention.

I concur with everything above. These trems are rock solid so sounds like poor setup. The ZR Trem is fantastic to play, very smooth and stable.

m_cheung

notonlybutalso said:

I notice the ibanez page doesn't list the 420 anymore so i guess its a toss up between the new model 520 with the edge trem or an older model 420 with the ZR. Personally i would go for the 420 just because of the better (in my opinion) trem. Apart from that they are no different, same pickups, same wood, the 420 has a wizard II neck as opposed to the wizard III of the 520 but spec wise (if the 420 is from 2010 onwards) they are identical. So it boils down to which trem you prefer 

Richardj said:

Again, for me personally, the essence of the S series is the ZR trem. For the cost of a new 520 it could well be worth seeking out an old stock or even slightly used higher model.  There is always (ahem!) a nice 970 in the classifieds

Also a very nice Prestige from @hubobulous.

hubobulous said:

@Richardj - thanks for the mention.

I concur with everything above. These trems are rock solid so sounds like poor setup. The ZR Trem is fantastic to play, very smooth and stable.

mike_l said:

m_cheung said:

If anyone has any comments on whether to go for the s420 and s520 I'd welcome those! 

Thanks! 

M

Which one plays/sounds/looks best to you?

That's the one to go for.

@Richardj I hadn't actually considered that - was so fixated on either s420 or s520, but yeah I will look into old/second hand guitar.

@mike_l It's tricky because like @notonlybutalso says, they're virtually the same guitar except for the trem system, but I know what you mean - it probably should be a gut decision! One thing I did notice about the s420 is that there are no fret dots which looked that little bit cooler than the s520 ;-)

@notonlybutalso @Richardj @hubobulous What is it about the zr that you prefer over the edge? Tbh, I couldn't feel any difference, but next time I try them out I'd like to have specific qualities to pick out.

Thanks!

Michael

m_cheung

notonlybutalso said:

I notice the ibanez page doesn't list the 420 anymore so i guess its a toss up between the new model 520 with the edge trem or an older model 420 with the ZR. Personally i would go for the 420 just because of the better (in my opinion) trem. Apart from that they are no different, same pickups, same wood, the 420 has a wizard II neck as opposed to the wizard III of the 520 but spec wise (if the 420 is from 2010 onwards) they are identical. So it boils down to which trem you prefer 

Richardj said:

Again, for me personally, the essence of the S series is the ZR trem. For the cost of a new 520 it could well be worth seeking out an old stock or even slightly used higher model.  There is always (ahem!) a nice 970 in the classifieds

Also a very nice Prestige from @hubobulous.

hubobulous said:

@Richardj - thanks for the mention.

I concur with everything above. These trems are rock solid so sounds like poor setup. The ZR Trem is fantastic to play, very smooth and stable.

mike_l said:

m_cheung said:

If anyone has any comments on whether to go for the s420 and s520 I'd welcome those! 

Thanks! 

M

Which one plays/sounds/looks best to you?

That's the one to go for.

@Richardj I hadn't actually considered that - was so fixated on either s420 or s520, but yeah I will look into old/second hand guitar.

@mike_l It's tricky because like @notonlybutalso says, they're virtually the same guitar except for the trem system, but I know what you mean - it probably should be a gut decision! One thing I did notice about the s420 is that there are no fret dots which looked that little bit cooler than the s520 ;-)

@notonlybutalso @Richardj @hubobulous What is it about the zr that you prefer over the edge? Tbh, I couldn't feel any difference, but next time I try them out I'd like to have specific qualities to pick out.

Thanks!

Michael

notonlybutalso

Personally i find the bearing system to have a smoother movement over the knife edge style, but the biggest reason i went for one is because cheaper knife edge trems are made from softer metal and the edge can wear down over time causing instability and failure to return to pitch, whereas obviously with a bearing/roller setup that wont happen at all

ICBM

I only came to this by accident since I'm not familiar with these guitars, but since it hasn't been mentioned yet, the complete opposite of what the sales guy said is true.

On a double-locking trem system, if the strings are stretched properly (which actually means tightly 'formed' to the edges of the nut and saddles, since the steel itself does not stretch further once it's at pitch), then physics dictates that the strings *cannot* go out of tune, and certainly not only one or two - it would only be possible for all six to at the same time if there was friction at the bearing point. If only one or two strings go out while the others remain in tune, it's a set-up problem or lack of stretching-in.

That's the whole point of a double-locking trem - if the string can't move at either end, then it can't go out of tune.

Fuzzdog

Another vote for 'the shop was talking out of their collective arses' here.

It is possible for one or two strings to go out on a double locking setup - the usual culprit is one of the nut blocks either not screwed down right or they're just a bit buggered.  

Also possible the actual nut screws aren't tight - this causes the entire nut to wobble slightly, which does put all the strings out, but will usually put one or two out a lot further than the others.  Had that one on my old S470!

Both the ZR and the Edge are superb trems - I used to be able to pick my Indonesian 470 (with the ZR) up by the bar, shake the guitar around, dive it down, do other such shameful acts with it and it would come up bang on in tune.  It's a lovely system to set up, very user friendly, and it's hard to work out how the hell someone could do it wrong, but if anyone can, I'm sure most guitar shops can.

I have a Japanese S at the moment with the Edge trem - Personally, I prefer the feel of it over the ZR, as the ZR just seemed a bit too smooth to me after being raised on Floyd Roses and the like and I found it quite hard to feel the neutral point when doing assorted wibbly pitch antics.  I really do miss how easy the ZR was to set up though, they really did think through the whole 'ease of maintenance' thing which, to be honest, is not exactly the strong point with an Edge.

Also, first post after lurking for months.  Woo!

m_cheung

notonlybutalso said:

Personally i find the bearing system to have a smoother movement over the knife edge style, but the biggest reason i went for one is because cheaper knife edge trems are made from softer metal and the edge can wear down over time causing instability and failure to return to pitch, whereas obviously with a bearing/roller setup that wont happen at all

That's really interesting, thanks for the experience tip @notonlybutalso.

ICBM said:

I only came to this by accident since I'm not familiar with these guitars, but since it hasn't been mentioned yet, the complete opposite of what the sales guy said is true.

On a double-locking trem system, if the strings are stretched properly (which actually means tightly 'formed' to the edges of the nut and saddles, since the steel itself does not stretch further once it's at pitch), then physics dictates that the strings *cannot* go out of tune, and certainly not only one or two - it would only be possible for all six to at the same time if there was friction at the bearing point. If only one or two strings go out while the others remain in tune, it's a set-up problem or lack of stretching-in.

That's the whole point of a double-locking trem - if the string can't move at either end, then it can't go out of tune.

That's a really good point - I hadn't actually thought about it when they told me that, just kind of accepted it, but you're right - surely it shouldn't be possible for them go out if there's no where to succumb to friction... nice one @ICBM!

Fuzzdog said:

Another vote for 'the shop was talking out of their collective arses' here.

It is possible for one or two strings to go out on a double locking setup - the usual culprit is one of the nut blocks either not screwed down right or they're just a bit buggered.  

Also possible the actual nut screws aren't tight - this causes the entire nut to wobble slightly, which does put all the strings out, but will usually put one or two out a lot further than the others.  Had that one on my old S470!

Both the ZR and the Edge are superb trems - I used to be able to pick my Indonesian 470 (with the ZR) up by the bar, shake the guitar around, dive it down, do other such shameful acts with it and it would come up bang on in tune.  It's a lovely system to set up, very user friendly, and it's hard to work out how the hell someone could do it wrong, but if anyone can, I'm sure most guitar shops can.

I have a Japanese S at the moment with the Edge trem - Personally, I prefer the feel of it over the ZR, as the ZR just seemed a bit too smooth to me after being raised on Floyd Roses and the like and I found it quite hard to feel the neutral point when doing assorted wibbly pitch antics.  I really do miss how easy the ZR was to set up though, they really did think through the whole 'ease of maintenance' thing which, to be honest, is not exactly the strong point with an Edge.

Also, first post after lurking for months.  Woo!

Thanks for more experience tips here - the sales guy did say at one point "maybe the nuts aren't tight enough" but then couldn't locate a handy allen key...

Interesting what you say about finding the neutral point on ZR - 

Fuzzdog said:

I prefer the feel of it over the ZR, as the ZR just seemed a bit too smooth to me after being raised on Floyd Roses and the like and I found it quite hard to feel the neutral point when doing assorted wibbly pitch antics.

so do you mean returning to 'Zero point' didn't feel solid if you kept your hand on the trem, instead of just releasing it?

Oh, and I feel honoured you've broken your silence on my thread @Fuzzdog !

Thanks!

Michael

Fuzzdog

m_cheung said:

so do you mean returning to 'Zero point' didn't feel solid if you kept your hand on the trem, instead of just releasing it?

Oh, and I feel honoured you've broken your silence on my thread @Fuzzdog !

Thanks!

Michael

With a knife edge system like a traditional Floyd or an Edge, there's a very definite difference in feel when the bar is at the point it would balance if you just let it go - very handy if you're using the bar to manipulate the notes to precise pitches, passing back and forth through that neutral point, which I do rather a lot.  The ZR was the smoothest trem I have ever used, to the point that I just couldn't feel that point anywhere near as well. 

However, if you're not someone who uses the bar in that way, more for just dives, slurs and vibrato, the ZR is an absolutely superb bit of kit.  Just the fact that there was that little intonation setting screw built in made setups an absolute doddle, whereas setting intonation on an Edge (if you don't have the rather obscure intonation tool) is usually something accompanied by much swearing and occasionally throwing things at the cat.

Richardj

I have (rightly or wrongly) likened the ZR to a Bigsby in how you can use it for subtle warbling as well as full on dive bombing.  

With the ZR the strings are actually connected to both ends of the guitar whereas with the knife edge types they are connected at the nut but resting against the bridge posts. another reason they sound and feel different. 

The ZPS system will always bring it back to pitch if you simply let go of the bar.  I think it is a more reliable system long-term wise as it will take a lot longer for the rollers to wear than a knife edge.  I have heard of them wearing out, but only after years of abuse without any real care or maintenance.  

After you familiarise yourself with how it works it really is a doddle to re-string, set up and keep in tune and intonated. One thing to note however is to not over tighten the locking bolts.  They do not need to be super tight and you can strip the threads or damage the blocks if you are too heavy handed.  Not a fault with the system, just a bit of common sense.

m_cheung

Fuzzdog said:With a knife edge system like a traditional Floyd or an Edge, there's a very definite difference in feel when the bar is at the point it would balance if you just let it go - very handy if you're using the bar to manipulate the notes to precise pitches, passing back and forth through that neutral point, which I do rather a lot.  The ZR was the smoothest trem I have ever used, to the point that I just couldn't feel that point anywhere near as well. 
However, if you're not someone who uses the bar in that way, more for just dives, slurs and vibrato, the ZR is an absolutely superb bit of kit.  Just the fact that there was that little intonation setting screw built in made setups an absolute doddle, whereas setting intonation on an Edge (if you don't have the rather obscure intonation tool) is usually something accompanied by much swearing and occasionally throwing things at the cat.
Thanks for the detail - interesting that something that's supposed to be so good could go the other way in that it was too good, haha, but yes I can see what you mean - almost like you don't have a reference point to rely on, interesting.

Richardj said:

I have (rightly or wrongly) likened the ZR to a Bigsby in how you can use it for subtle warbling as well as full on dive bombing.  

With the ZR the strings are actually connected to both ends of the guitar whereas with the knife edge types they are connected at the nut but resting against the bridge posts. another reason they sound and feel different. 

The ZPS system will always bring it back to pitch if you simply let go of the bar.  I think it is a more reliable system long-term wise as it will take a lot longer for the rollers to wear than a knife edge.  I have heard of them wearing out, but only after years of abuse without any real care or maintenance.  

After you familiarise yourself with how it works it really is a doddle to re-string, set up and keep in tune and intonated. One thing to note however is to not over tighten the locking bolts.  They do not need to be super tight and you can strip the threads or damage the blocks if you are too heavy handed.  Not a fault with the system, just a bit of common sense.

Thanks for the insight, and differing points of views - it seems like I really need to spend some good time comparing and finding out which suits my playing more.

I guess set up wise, it'll just be like anything, getting used to doing it and practise.

Oh btw, what's involved in maintenance? For both systems?

Thanks!

Michael

Richardj

As with most things, clean it after you use it and a little bit of lube at the contact points if needed

m_cheung

Richardj said:

a little bit of lube at the contact points if needed

Ah nice tip, thanks!

Michael

m_cheung

Thanks for everyone's guidance on this, I'm pleased to say I got a new guitar this weekend, interestingly enough though I didn't go for either the S420 or S520!

Instead I tried out and fell for the RGIR20E - one of the new RG Iron Label models: Edge-Zero II and EMGs :-) 

Michael