Is Harley Benton a good or bad thing?

Barnezy

This isn't a question about quality. 

Are brands like Harley Benton a good thing or do the drive consumerism at a time when we should be consuming less, appreciating our things and preserving resource? Or are they a good way for people to get in to guitar who are on a tight budget? 

I personally find it a shame that the days of buying a quality product that lasts a lifetime are over and instead you can now buy a copy of a guitar you would have thought about before, on a whim and at a price that you can just throw it in the bin when you're bored of it. Cheap guitars have always existed, but Harley Benton seem to have taken this to another level. When you see forum questions like "is it worth upgrading pickups in a Harley Benton" it just demonstrates the lack of perceived value in these things, regardless of their sale price. 

jpttaylor

Personally very much doubt that a Gibson built today will last you a lifetime - some of them are so bad that they get run over by bulldozers and diggers!

It's different strokes to different folks. I very much doubt you'll start seeing professional gigging musicians touring with Harley Bentons, but for the casual players that don't have £1k plus to drop on a Les Paul, I think they're great.

ICBM

Both, for the reasons you've already given.

There have always been cheap throwaway guitars, so that much is not new. What is new is that they're actually *worth* upgrading and can be made into effectively professional-quality instruments, despite being even cheaper than cheap guitars were in the past, in real terms.

Such is the power of modern mass production and globalisation.

But a question I always feel like asking, and this seem an appropriate place to, is "when is enough, enough?" ie when do we reach the point where every guitarist in the world can own a decent instrument or two? (Not the collections some people seem to amass which would have seemed excessive even to most rock stars thirty years ago.)

I wouldn't be surprised if we've already passed it.

munckee

A 335 starts around £1500, I bought a HB equivalent for £100, it clearly wasn't same quality (still good quality) but I am unlikely to ever spend £1500 on a guitar so otherwise I can't have one.

Barnezy

munckee said:

A 335 starts around £1500, I bought a HB equivalent for £100, it clearly wasn't same quality (still good quality) but I am unlikely to ever spend £1500 on a guitar so otherwise I can't have one.

Appreciate HB have allowed you to buy a 335 style guitar at the cost of a night out. What would you do with the guitar if you broke the head stock off? Would you pay for it to be repaired as you would with a Gibson or just throw it away and buy another one? 

Cheap Argos guitars used to be for beginners who had one guitar until they could afford something they wanted. Now people are buying HB guitars as part of a collection....

PonchoGreg

I suspect (but can't know for sure) that the vast majority of HB guitars will be purchased by beginners as their first axe, as opposed to established players with several Gibsons/Fenders/etc buying them for funsies. The "tip of the iceberg" factor with forum posts and youtube vids by the usual gear channels might distort our perception.

So in that regard they can only be a good thing, I don't see how they would be any more/less disposable than Epiphones or Squiers from a few years ago. If anything, the fact that they are cheaper, or offer better bang for your buck, would encourage me (as a beginner) to improve it with mods given the financial headroom, thus encouraging me to keep it for longer.

Massive caveat: I've never tried a Harley Benton

PonchoGreg

ICBM said:

But a question I always feel like asking, and this seem an appropriate place to, is "when is enough, enough?" ie when do we reach the point where every guitarist in the world can own a decent instrument or two? (Not the collections some people seem to amass which would have seemed excessive even to most rock stars thirty years ago.)

I wouldn't be surprised if we've already passed it.

That's a good question, and yeah I reckon we're waaaaay past that. One could buy two pro-level guitars, say at £1.5k each - keep them for 10 years or more and you realise that the cost per day is completely negligible as far as hobbies go (sure you need to factor in strings and other disposable sundries but you catch my drift). And that's a theoretical, "throw-it-away-when-done" scenario; especially if you buy used in the first place, the residual value of the instruments means that the per-day cost will be much much lower in reality.

Taking gas, and the need to swap gear for gear's sake, out of the equation is interesting indeed.

sweepy

HB are a Godsend to be honest, when I think back to the late 70’s when I started playing, the shops basically had bugger all that was even playable for £75 or so

Grumpyrocker

HB are worth existing just to point out to everyone the real economics of guitars and what a complete ripoff many other guitars are. 

mbe

Harley Benton brand, like the Vintage brand, now seem to be aiming to produce much higher quality instruments as well as the 'beginner' level guitars. To a certain extent, this has also been the case with Chapman. 

Quality in guitars used to be a one way street with Fender and Gibson travelling downmarket with Squier and Epiphone, but some of their offerings now rival the parent companies' models. 

munckee

Barnezy said:

munckee said:

A 335 starts around £1500, I bought a HB equivalent for £100, it clearly wasn't same quality (still good quality) but I am unlikely to ever spend £1500 on a guitar so otherwise I can't have one.

Appreciate HB have allowed you to buy a 335 style guitar at the cost of a night out. What would you do with the guitar if you broke the head stock off? Would you pay for it to be repaired as you would with a Gibson or just throw it away and buy another one? 

Cheap Argos guitars used to be for beginners who had one guitar until they could afford something they wanted. Now people are buying HB guitars as part of a collection....

As I have upgraded the pickups, changed the tuners, pickguard, knobs, switch and sanded the plasticky sheen from the paintwork and sprayed and reshaped the headstock I would fix it.  I have some relatively expensive gear, my favourite things are a £100 fender champion 600 I recovered in tweed, changed the tubes and speaker and had rewired, the harley benton and a joyo pedal I sanded and my daughter painted for me.

I'm attached to the things I have time invested in rather than money.

ThePrettyDamned

Tbh I wouldn't expect much from them. Are they a good thing? I think it stems down to whether they implement sustainable practice, excellent human rights and a profitable business model. 

Most guitar companies manage one of those three things... 

midlifecrisis

the fact that you can buy a perfectly playable guitar these days for a couple of days wages can only be a good thing. There is plenty of choice in all price ranges. If you want to spend £2000, 3000 and much more you have that choice. dont see a problem. If lower pricesmean workers are being exploited somewhere, thats a different issue.

JayGee

Barnezy said:

munckee said:

A 335 starts around £1500, I bought a HB equivalent for £100, it clearly wasn't same quality (still good quality) but I am unlikely to ever spend £1500 on a guitar so otherwise I can't have one.

Appreciate HB have allowed you to buy a 335 style guitar at the cost of a night out. What would you do with the guitar if you broke the head stock off? Would you pay for it to be repaired as you would with a Gibson or just throw it away and buy another one? 

Are HBs prone to headstock breaks in the same way Gibson’s are?

And for that matter (while Gibson headstocks are clearly more fragile than they have any business being) what proportion of owners actually experience a headstock break (or similar major structural issue) on either a Gibson or a HB?

I have a couple of sub £200 cheapies (an Indie PRS-a-like and a bottom of the range Epiphone Dot Studio) as well as a number of more expensive instruments, both of the have seen regular use in and out of the house (regular rehearsals, paid gigs, and jams where they’ve been handed round a fair bit) alongside, and sometimes in preference to the expensive stuff over  an extended period without the need for so much as a truss rod tweak, and I know quite a few other people who have had similar experiences so the assertion/assumption that cheap guitars are throwaway items seems flawed.

Sassafras

I think they're a good thing.
They allow their youthful workforce the chance to contribute to their families finances.
An extra $2 dollars a week can make the difference between eating and starving.
What else are those 12 year old kids gonna do?
Keeps them off the streets.

munckee

JayGee said:

Barnezy said:

munckee said:

A 335 starts around £1500, I bought a HB equivalent for £100, it clearly wasn't same quality (still good quality) but I am unlikely to ever spend £1500 on a guitar so otherwise I can't have one.

Appreciate HB have allowed you to buy a 335 style guitar at the cost of a night out. What would you do with the guitar if you broke the head stock off? Would you pay for it to be repaired as you would with a Gibson or just throw it away and buy another one? 

Are HBs prone to headstock breaks in the same way Gibson’s are?

And for that matter (while Gibson headstocks are clearly more fragile than they have any business being) what proportion of owners actually experience a headstock break (or similar major structural issue) on either a Gibson or a HB?

I have a couple of sub £200 cheapies (an Indie PRS-a-like and a bottom of the range Epiphone Dot Studio) as well as a number of more expensive instruments, both of the have seen regular use in and out of the house (regular rehearsals, paid gigs, and jams where they’ve been handed round a fair bit) alongside, and sometimes in preference to the expensive stuff over  an extended period without the need for so much as a truss rod tweak, and I know quite a few other people who have had similar experiences so the assertion/assumption that cheap guitars are throwaway items seems flawed.

The HB has a maple neck so should be less likely to break than mahogany I believe?

Kilgore

I think the question is meaningless. Harley Benton (Thomann), like any company is concerned with flogging it's product. The question is whether our decisions as consumers are "good" or "bad". Nobody is twisting our arm to buy.

As a brand, they offer decent quality at an affordable price. Ideally suited to beginners or those with a limited budget.

If we're talking about driving consumerism, do we really need the latest Signature, Vintage, Modern Player, Re-issue, Golden Era,etc, etc, from the established brands?

ICBM

I've never seen a Harley Benton one with a broken neck, although that could be because no-one would think it was worth paying to have it repaired... but I don't think that's just it, people bring all sorts of cheap junk to be repaired until they're told that the cost far exceeds the value.

Any Gibson-style guitar with a maple neck, shallower head angle, or a proper scarf jointed headstock - where the head piece runs up into the neck, not one where the joint is around the E tuners - or a combination of those, is much stronger than a mahogany-neck Gibson.

Funkfingers

As already stated, there have always been imitators of famous guitar designs. Some attempts to avoid infringement litigation have resulted in other designs that are interesting in their own right. (The sort of oddities that HarrySeven collects.) 

One of the major differences between a budget/beginner guitar and a "pro" one is the amount of skilled fettling that it receives before leaving the factory. Anyone with the tools, skill and inclination can perform these tasks themselves, in their own time, and avoid having to pay for them. 

Another possible difference is the quality of the wood used. Sawing and drying processes can result in fingerboards that shrink after the instrument has been completed. Result - the frets are no longer seated properly, affecting playability.

Kilgore said:

If we're talking about driving consumerism, do we really need the latest Signature, Vintage, Modern Player, Re-issue, Golden Era,etc, etc, from the established brands?

As long as the original vintage pieces cost at least as much as a luxury car or a house, there will be aspirant owners willing to pay smaller - but still exorbitant - figures for the privilege of having a posh replica. Supply and demand.

The one I always craved but would never be in a position to afford was the early Fender blackguard, especially the short-lived "Nocaster". I bought a pre-owned C.S. Closet Classic Relic model. Apart from adopting conventional modern control wiring, the replica is near enough for me.

I also have budget guitars, often modified. If I can get my kind of noises out of 'em at the appropriate moments, that is good enough.

Speaking of modification. Budget guitars are fine for subjecting to experimental modifications that you would not dream of inflicting on a valuable piece for fear of detracting from its perceived monetary value.

jake_the_pake

As someone that has never spent more than £500 on a guitar, and an owner of a HB35 - I think they're very much a good thing. Being able to access a decent instrument at a low cost is always good for guitar playing in general, surely? The more people with access to a guitar, the better? 

As for them being disposable...I'd never consider simply binning a guitar. Sure, cheaper guitars I've had have passed from me to someone else fairly easily through here or wherever, but taking a look at the first page of the guitar classifieds right now, that isn't an exclusivity of low end guitars. 

darthed1981

Barnezy said:

This isn't a question about quality. 

Are brands like Harley Benton a good thing or do the drive consumerism at a time when we should be consuming less, appreciating our things and preserving resource? Or are they a good way for people to get in to guitar who are on a tight budget? 

I personally find it a shame that the days of buying a quality product that lasts a lifetime are over and instead you can now buy a copy of a guitar you would have thought about before, on a whim and at a price that you can just throw it in the bin when you're bored of it. Cheap guitars have always existed, but Harley Benton seem to have taken this to another level. When you see forum questions like "is it worth upgrading pickups in a Harley Benton" it just demonstrates the lack of perceived value in these things, regardless of their sale price. 

Buying high-end guitars is ALSO a sign of "consumerism" you know... I know people who drop 3k on a guitar think they are buying a piece of art or craftsmanship, and they arguably are, but its all enabled by capitalism.  I'd hate to think what the guitar equivalent of a Lada would be like!

All of our lives and lifestyles are totally, 100% enabled by the global wealth divide, strip mining the planet and aggressive capitalism.  That's why dealing with those problems is so hard, because we don't really want to.

You may be right that in the end, whatever the end is, we have a smaller range of guitars available and we go back to only having one or two each, but they will be just as likely to be trapping us in a woolworths special hell as making us all buy just one Gibson.

Plus, the way things are going, I might buy a boat instead of a guitar...