A new story and an old story from 2014 - Fake or Legit Vintage 62 Strat

guitars4you

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/211413/#Comment_211413  going back to 2014

I've just found a story on FB from a long while ago, whilst on a Google hunt

I'm just try to validate an 'original 1962 Strat' on behalf of a customer - I know it has undergone a refin to the body and neck - As such the body no longer has any original factory markings, so always hard to validate - The neck appears to have the original decal etc on the headstock, but now with an overspray that covers the decal - It has a Braz slab fingerboard - Behind the top nut it has that smooth 'heel' that is far more pronounced on a Custom Shop replica - 

I'll post pics later - But 'P Murdie' is stamped on the heel of the neck as though he is the builder of the neck - This threw me out as I was looking for one of the many 'Mexican names' who signed and built many of the necks back in the pre-CBS days  

The butt end of the neck has a stamp as per many of the 62 models on/after April 1962 - The stamp is 2 007 62B - So the 007 is again throwing me out as I'm expecting to see a month not 007 (no puns please about Mr Bond)

The guitar serial number, from the neck plate, has now been pencilled on the rear of the neck, at the butt end and ditto on the scratchplate - I assume this was added at the time of the refin etc in order for the repair guy to identify the correct neck, whilst in his workshop

I've been pulling my hair out (what is left of it) trying to gather info - The above link came into play and now raises a few question etc - From what I can gather P Murdie undertook all the repair work - So now am I to assume that he applied his own 'markings' to the original neck after the refin, including any changes to the date stamp - Any comments from any FB members who can add to this are very welcome

The tuners are from the 64/67 era with the Kluson Deluxe on 2 lines - So not original to this Strat - But still vintage and worth a £ or two

The trem assembly is all vintage and correct

The scratchplate and the whole wiring + pick-up loom is as it should be inc 62 pots - all working - Only solder join touched is to the output socket and trem earthing - Otherwise all correct - This assembly itself is well worth a good wedge if sold and placed on the market

I've seen many 'reworked' original Strats - Including recently an early 60's with work carried out by John Birch with a 'lacquered' rosewood fingerboard - One of JBs trademarks - So no shortage of examples of 'repair work' carried out when such guitars had no 'vintage value' - As such it is hard to know how to value and market such a guitar

Granted a full blown clean original example will always carry the higher price ticket - And rightly so - But how do we market such a guitar as this - I know the facts are vintage correct tuners, trem assembly, scratchplate + electrics loom etc + serial number neck plate - At the moment I can't validate with 100% accuracy the neck + body - I can certainly split and sell the parts, as required, with 100% accuracy as to what they are  - But always a shame to break up - Yet if I can't validate the neck and body, the value of the complete guitar is probably not as high as the parts

Please note at this stage I'm only looking for opinions and any comments that might shed a light on P Murdie - The guitar is not for sale, or indeed the parts, as I'm still trying to validate info on behalf of the owner 

In short a can of worms regarding the 'assembled' guitar

gringopig

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PhilKing

I have a very similar guitar in my collection, but didn't pay much for it.  The neck does't have a pencil date because someone had sanded it a bit to get a better fit in the neck pocket of a replacement body.  The pickups are black bottom originals, it's a slab rosewood neck with an old decal on it, the headstock is slimmer than many of the new ones and the feel matches my 60 and 62 necks.  It has an old nitro pick guard and an original trem.  This has single line Klusons on it, but if I was going to sell it, I'd probably part it out or just put it at a low price for a friend or something like that.  It's a really hard choice.  In my case though, I can just enjoy playing it, since I'm not trying to sell it.  For the insurance, I made it a  refinished 1961 Strat, but that was more to cover replacement.

HarrySeven

IMHO, possibly the worst thing in dealing with Guitars like this, is discussing the potential reality of the situation with their owners...

In the past few years, I’ve had the dubious pleasure of examining 3 or 4 “original” early ‘60’s Strats, all of which were sad “Trigger’s Broom” jobs (I posted extensively about one of them recently). In each case, the owners thought they were sitting on a goldmine - and all of them were, errrr...somewhat misguided.

It’s interesting that you mention John Birch - by far the worst was one which he “upgraded” in the ‘70’s - total dog’s dinner.

ICBM

HarrySeven said:

IMHO, possibly the worst thing in dealing with Guitars like this, is discussing the potential reality of the situation with their owners...

In the past few years, I’ve had the dubious pleasure of examining 3 or 4 “original” early ‘60’s Strats, all of which were sad “Trigger’s Broom” jobs (I posted extensively about one of them recently). In each case, the owners thought they were sitting on a goldmine

It’s often a different type of mine... a whole field of them.

I’m working on one just now - which the owner knew wasn’t a real old Fender, but was curious as to what it was - where the neck turns out to be from a ‘63 Jazzmaster, with a fake Strat decal. I spotted it straight away because the headstock hasn’t been cut down to the Strat shape, but if it had been then the only clue left would be the ‘4’ type code in the date stamp.

This is the least of the non-originality on this one! It’s the only Fender part on it... but someone without even basic knowledge might see the - completely genuine - date stamp, not realise the 4 is not the day of the month, and assume it was worth thousands.

wrinkleygit

I can’t help with P Murdie, but back in the mid seventies an early 60’s Strat was no more than a 10-15 year old guitar, no different to something from say 2005 in today’s terms. As such they were easy to mix & match hence the amount of mongrels in existence.
For my own part I ended up with a bitzacaster in a p/x that I knew had a replacement neck, among other things, what it’s worth now is anyone’s guess, here’s a link to a thread I posted some time ago.
https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/112626/bitsocaster-any-ideas#latest

impmann

Sadly, its worth the same as a normal part caster imho. If the absolute origin of the parts cannot be verified, it has to be treated as a bitsa.

No matter how authentic the parts may have been once, it now has curio value only and value as a working instrument. 

guitars4you

impmann said:

Sadly, its worth the same as a normal part caster imho. If the absolute origin of the parts cannot be verified, it has to be treated as a bitsa.

No matter how authentic the parts may have been once, it now has curio value only and value as a working instrument. 

The bulk of the parts can be verified in this instance - Trem assembly, scratch plate assembly, neck plate and tuners are all correct with no question marks - Each of these have a value - Especially the scratch plate/pick-up assembly 

It is the body and neck that can't be verified - As such all the parts put together on an assembled guitar can't be verified - As such, far easier from a credibility point of view to break up and sell as parts, especially regarding the hardware

Even valid questions marks around the neck and body will still allow them to have a sensible valuation if split 

I think this is the approach that probably will be taken

But even an 'original vintage Strat' can have many questions, as no one, can hand on heart say the tuners, neck, or case, left the factory as a complete assembled guitar - Who can say the neck was not swapped 'Clapton Blackie' style some time in the past - We tend to just accept the sum of the parts equals an original model

guitars4you

HarrySeven said:

IMHO, possibly the worst thing in dealing with Guitars like this, is discussing the potential reality of the situation with their owners...

In the past few years, I’ve had the dubious pleasure of examining 3 or 4 “original” early ‘60’s Strats, all of which were sad “Trigger’s Broom” jobs (I posted extensively about one of them recently). In each case, the owners thought they were sitting on a goldmine - and all of them were, errrr...somewhat misguided.

It’s interesting that you mention John Birch - by far the worst was one which he “upgraded” in the ‘70’s - total dog’s dinner.

agree - especially regarding Mr Birch but he is not on his own - But such changes were just part of the time/era

ICBM

guitars4you said:

agree - especially regarding Mr Birch but he is not on his own - But such changes were just part of the time/era

The 'Strat' I'm working on now has been owned by the same person since the mid-80s and definitely came out of that era. Apart from the Jazzmaster neck - which has a repaired break in the head, has been refretted, had the fingerboard dots replaced, and a set of Schaller machineheads - it has a hand-made mahogany body (pretty well done), a Japanese bridge and pickguard, some strange pickups that look almost home-made but meter right and sound good, and cheap electronics... and a black neckplate that doesn't belong on any Fender! And yet it's actually quite a nice guitar. How much is it worth? Probably a few hundred pounds at most - and most of that is in the neck, even though it's very damaged. Luckily, the owner doesn't want to sell it.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

guitars4you said:

agree - especially regarding Mr Birch but he is not on his own - But such changes were just part of the time/era

The 'Strat' I'm working on now has been owned by the same person since the mid-80s and definitely came out of that era. Apart from the Jazzmaster neck - which has a repaired break in the head, has been refretted, had the fingerboard dots replaced, and a set of Schaller machineheads - it has a hand-made mahogany body (pretty well done), a Japanese bridge and pickguard, some strange pickups that look almost home-made but meter right and sound good, and cheap electronics... and a black neckplate that doesn't belong on any Fender! And yet it's actually quite a nice guitar. How much is it worth? Probably a few hundred pounds at most - and most of that is in the neck, even though it's very damaged. Luckily, the owner doesn't want to sell it.

I can't recall how much I was paid per week in 1978 - Nipper straight from school - But recall paying £375 for a refin 62 Start - Refin body but everything else was as it should be - At the same time I recall a green refin Strat, with 2 humbuckers fitted and somewhat of a mess for £250 - So guitar values were seriously low then compared to today - It makes you more appreciative of high priced clean examples - But the Meccano nature of such guitars leaves it wide open for 're-builds etc

https://guitar-auctions.co.uk/portfolio-post/lot-139-1962-fender-stratocaster-electric-guitar-in-need-of-re-building/ - Someone posted this on FB the other day - I don't know what price it will achieve - The hardware/p/ups look in a far bigger mess than mine - But the neck looks more 'accountable' - We all know it is not unheard of for certain sellers to buy both, or even 3, then concoct 2/3 viable examples between them and adjust values accordingly 

KKJale

Interesting discussion...

FWIW, here's a '57-ish replica by the same chap, the late Peter Murdie of Darlington...

https://m.facebook.com/christopher.russell.5872/posts/pcb.1462780240476060/

chris78

The bulk of the parts can be verified in this instance - Trem assembly, scratch plate assembly, neck plate and tuners are all correct with no question marks - Each of these have a value - Especially the scratch plate/pick-up assembly 

It is the body and neck that can't be verified - As such all the parts put together on an assembled guitar can't be verified - As such, far easier from a credibility point of view to break up and sell as parts, especially regarding the hardware

Even valid questions marks around the neck and body will still allow them to have a sensible valuation if split 

I think this is the approach that probably will be taken

But even an 'original vintage Strat' can have many questions, as no one, can hand on heart say the tuners, neck, or case, left the factory as a complete assembled guitar - Who can say the neck was not swapped 'Clapton Blackie' style some time in the past - We tend to just accept the sum of the parts equals an original model

From a valuation point of view, breaking it for parts makes sense.
How does it actually play as a complete guitar out of interest? Is it pretty average or have the woods come together to form something special?

impmann

guitars4you said:

ICBM said:

guitars4you said:

agree - especially regarding Mr Birch but he is not on his own - But such changes were just part of the time/era

The 'Strat' I'm working on now has been owned by the same person since the mid-80s and definitely came out of that era. Apart from the Jazzmaster neck - which has a repaired break in the head, has been refretted, had the fingerboard dots replaced, and a set of Schaller machineheads - it has a hand-made mahogany body (pretty well done), a Japanese bridge and pickguard, some strange pickups that look almost home-made but meter right and sound good, and cheap electronics... and a black neckplate that doesn't belong on any Fender! And yet it's actually quite a nice guitar. How much is it worth? Probably a few hundred pounds at most - and most of that is in the neck, even though it's very damaged. Luckily, the owner doesn't want to sell it.

I can't recall how much I was paid per week in 1978 - Nipper straight from school - But recall paying £375 for a refin 62 Start - Refin body but everything else was as it should be - At the same time I recall a green refin Strat, with 2 humbuckers fitted and somewhat of a mess for £250 - So guitar values were seriously low then compared to today - It makes you more appreciative of high priced clean examples - But the Meccano nature of such guitars leaves it wide open for 're-builds etc

https://guitar-auctions.co.uk/portfolio-post/lot-139-1962-fender-stratocaster-electric-guitar-in-need-of-re-building/ - Someone posted this on FB the other day - I don't know what price it will achieve - The hardware/p/ups look in a far bigger mess than mine - But the neck looks more 'accountable' - We all know it is not unheard of for certain sellers to buy both, or even 3, then concoct 2/3 viable examples between them and adjust values accordingly 

That "62" Strat that G&H are selling is the left over detritus from rebuilding several guitars. Its crap - but its old crap therefore its valuable. That neck has *HUGE* divots in the fingerboard that will be noticeable when played, the refinished body looks like it was refinished in Dulux, the pickups are busted etc etc... its crap!

This is exactly where the vintage market is bollocks. Yes, you could spend a lot of cash turning it into a working guitar but it will be Trigger's Broom and I guarantee it won't be any better than a CS Fender. But it gives the owner the bragging rights of owning a "1962" Fender... so flipping what

ICBM

impmann said:

That "62" Strat that G&H are selling is the left over detritus from rebuilding several guitars. Its crap - but its old crap therefore its valuable. That neck has *HUGE* divots in the fingerboard that will be noticeable when played, the refinished body looks like it was refinished in Dulux, the pickups are busted etc etc... its crap!

This is exactly where the vintage market is bollocks. Yes, you could spend a lot of cash turning it into a working guitar but it will be Trigger's Broom and I guarantee it won't be any better than a CS Fender. But it gives the owner the bragging rights of owning a "1962" Fender... so flipping what

Amps are just as bad. Some years ago I was given an original very early Park 45 chassis - the JTM45's rarer brother - on which almost all the original parts had been replaced including both transformers, and the PT hole was a ragged oversized tin-snips job. On top of that it had partially collapsed under the weight of the transformers (they're prone to that), and some of the corner folds had started to tear.

I stripped all the salvageable parts and binned it. With hindsight, I probably shouldn't have because the market is now so stupid that even that ragged, torn old bit of folded aluminium that had *once* been an early Park chassis would be worth something probably non-insignificant. On the other hand, I'm also pleased that no-one else can now rebuild it as an "original" and use it to part some fool from his money.

HarrySeven

impmann said:

That "62" Strat that GH are selling is the left over detritus from rebuilding several guitars. It's crap - but it's old crap therefore it's valuable.

And there is just one of my issues with GH...

guitars4you

chris78 said:

From a valuation point of view, breaking it for parts makes sense.
How does it actually play as a complete guitar out of interest? Is it pretty average or have the woods come together to form something special?

I played it when it first came into my hands but not since - Always a matter of opinion, but IMO I'd rather have a C/Shop based on feel and playability - Neck pick-up tone is spot on - Bridge fine but like many old Strats it can be a bit brittle/on the thin side - So better than pretty ave, maybe not as good as wow

But it is not currently strung up and set-up - As everyone wants to look under the bonnet

I'll know soon what we are going to do with it