ITV's Made In Britain, Atkin Guitars.

Sarge

https://www.itv.com/hub/made-in-britain/2a5692a0016


Did anyone see this? 

merciful-evans

just did from your link (eventually... no thanks to ITV!) 

Interesting stuff. Strange claim about the tonal change following freezing the applied nitro though. I'm not sure what to make of that.

Sarge

I don't build guitars and know little of acoustic builds, but I was suprised at the cost of these Atkin guitars after watching that.
I'd not previously heard of Atkin so googled them after watching it, I'd estimated a price of around £500 after seeing the use of cnc and laser cutting etc. 
Cnc cut necks, machine cut fret slots... The chap didn't even use a mask when spraying nitro! 

Am I wrong thinking these are a wee bit overpriced? 

Whitecat

Sarge said:

I don't build guitars and know little of acoustic builds, but I was suprised at the cost of these Atkin guitars after watching that.
I'd not previously heard of Atkin so googled them after watching it, I'd estimated a price of around £500 after seeing the use of cnc and laser cutting etc. 
Cnc cut necks, machine cut fret slots... The chap didn't even use a mask when spraying nitro! 

Am I wrong thinking these are a wee bit overpriced? 

So let’s see - 350 guitars a year, a staff of seven. A £500 a guitar would be £416 before VAT, and thus probably-maybe around £300 dealer cost for those that go out to dealers. That’s £105k gross, a little more if you assume some direct sales and want to be generous, but if we’re stingy on that and presume most go to dealers then there it is. 

So from that £105k you need to deduct materials cost, factory rent, business rates, IT, PR, all the usual overheads it takes to run a manufacturing business. Alistair can pay himself £10k a year as a director and take the rest of his income as dividends on profit, but there isn’t any at the number you are suggesting - let’s say the other six are on minimum wage - that’s a little over £15k per year for full time - which is £90k altogether - leaving less than £15k for all the aforementioned stuff total because there will also be payroll costs and pension stuff and all that additional expense on top of what amounts to a pathetic wage for skilled luthiery. 

The moral of the story is that the price of something is usually unrelated to how much it costs to make. 

SteveRobinson

Sarge said:

The chap didn't even use a mask when spraying nitro! 

If there is a big enough air flow you don't need one, all the overspray and fumes are carried away into the booth.

Am I wrong thinking these are a wee bit overpriced? 

Yes you are. These are great guitars and more than a match for the US brands who also use CNC to reduce costs of course.

Alister is a great guy with first class customer service.

Universal8

Just watched this. Thanks.

Jimbro66

Sarge said:

I don't build guitars and know little of acoustic builds, but I was suprised at the cost of these Atkin guitars after watching that.
I'd not previously heard of Atkin so googled them after watching it, I'd estimated a price of around £500 after seeing the use of cnc and laser cutting etc. 
Cnc cut necks, machine cut fret slots... The chap didn't even use a mask when spraying nitro! 

Am I wrong thinking these are a wee bit overpriced? 

Yes you are wrong in over-simplifying the whole matter. By applying your logic very few guitars, acoustic or electric, would justify a price tag of more than a few hundred pounds.

@Whitecat has succinctly explained the many costs that arise in guitar manufacture. In reality many costs are higher than the examples given - ask any of the full time guitar makers on this forum. The cost of Atkin guitars has to be looked at in the context of the other well known acoustic guitar makes (and Atkin is a well known make) most of which are made by very similar methods. The higher range Martin's are similar cost. Makes like Collings, Bourgeoise, Goodall, etc are considerably more expensive. Alister Atkin is a very skilled luthier who knows how to make world class guitars. Play some. I personally find them more playable and nicer sounding than most comparable Martin's and they hold up well against the expensive American boutique brands mentioned previously.

Wazmeister

Sarge said:

I don't build guitars and know little of acoustic builds, but I was suprised at the cost of these Atkin guitars after watching that.
I'd not previously heard of Atkin so googled them after watching it, I'd estimated a price of around £500 after seeing the use of cnc and laser cutting etc. 
Cnc cut necks, machine cut fret slots... The chap didn't even use a mask when spraying nitro! 

Am I wrong thinking these are a wee bit overpriced? 

To be fair Sarge, I think you must be on glue... 

The Atkins 43 I own remains of the best guitars I ever heard or played. I was shocked when I stumbled on them - literally none of the Gibsons in the shop (which I went to purchase) came close.

SRich

Finally got there after watching ITV ads for ever.......

I don’t know what I expected, but this was a little Janet & John “This is how we make Acoustic Guitars children”.......

TheBigDipper

Thanks for sharing this. I've liked every Atkin I've ever played and would have happily bought an Atkin OM instead of the Brook Taw I preferred. I've been to the Brook workshop after buying the Taw ( you can't call it a factory, honestly ) and it's a very different place. No CNC, some 'steam punk' machinery and 100% hand built. But both places make great guitars and deserve to sell every one. 

fandango

Whitecat said:

Sarge said:

I don't build guitars and know little of acoustic builds, but I was suprised at the cost of these Atkin guitars after watching that.
I'd not previously heard of Atkin so googled them after watching it, I'd estimated a price of around £500 after seeing the use of cnc and laser cutting etc. 
Cnc cut necks, machine cut fret slots... The chap didn't even use a mask when spraying nitro! 

Am I wrong thinking these are a wee bit overpriced? 

So let’s see - 350 guitars a year, a staff of seven. A £500 a guitar would be £416 before VAT, and thus probably-maybe around £300 dealer cost for those that go out to dealers. That’s £105k gross, a little more if you assume some direct sales and want to be generous, but if we’re stingy on that and presume most go to dealers then there it is. 

So from that £105k you need to deduct materials cost, factory rent, business rates, IT, PR, all the usual overheads it takes to run a manufacturing business. Alistair can pay himself £10k a year as a director and take the rest of his income as dividends on profit, but there isn’t any at the number you are suggesting - let’s say the other six are on minimum wage - that’s a little over £15k per year for full time - which is £90k altogether - leaving less than £15k for all the aforementioned stuff total because there will also be payroll costs and pension stuff and all that additional expense on top of what amounts to a pathetic wage for skilled luthiery. 

The moral of the story is that the price of something is usually unrelated to how much it costs to make. 

Similar can be said of anything 'handmade', whether it be cakes, guitar pedals, furniture, pottery, etc, etc.

The flipside of Whitecat's calculation is in the question: What's the minimum selling price of the product to justify the business costs, including legislation, depreciation, R&D and return on risk?

I think these four things ALWAYS get overlooked when tFB starts talking price vs value. You can't run a business making a loss. And you can't run a business in isolation of all the issues that affect it.

Sarge

Thanks for your insight chaps, it seems I have underestimated the value of these somewhat, but this is why I asked the question as I'm always willing to learn. 

ICBM

The only Atkin I’ve seen personally had very poorly-finished fret ends - bad enough to snag your hand on - and a slightly wrong neck angle, but all companies make mistakes occasionally. I was surprised they let it out, though.

Jimbro66

ICBM said:

The only Atkin I’ve seen personally had very poorly-finished fret ends - bad enough to snag your hand on - and a slightly wrong neck angle, but all companies make mistakes occasionally. I was surprised they let it out, though.

When was that @ICBM?

It's true that all companies make mistakes occasionally: A Santa Cruz OM I bought unseen had exactly that issue, as did a neck made by a respected builder on this forum.

ICBM

Jimbro66 said:

When was that @ICBM?

It's true that all companies make mistakes occasionally: A Santa Cruz OM I bought unseen had exactly that issue, as did a neck made by a respected builder on this forum.

Within the last year, but I don’t know if the guitar was made recently.

Wazmeister

Sarge said:

Thanks for your insight chaps, it seems I have underestimated the value of these somewhat, but this is why I asked the question as I'm always willing to learn. 

Good answer mate - like it.