How do you soundcheck with no sound engineer?

markslade07

I'm looking for options/ ideas on how best to soundcheck a 4 piece band when there is no dedicated engineer (as is the case for us for 90% of the time).
We are vocals/ guitar/ bass and drums (not mic'd). Previously, we've only put vox through the PA but due to the 'beam of death' from my guitar amp, the bass player couldn't hear me at the last gig so pondering putting my amp through the the PA a touch to get it through the monitors. Is this a good idea? It would only be a smidgeon with the majority of the sound coming from the amp (tilted upwards)
We mainly play pub gigs, so I assume getting someone with a wireless system is perhaps the best, or getting a long xlr for the singer so they can walk out to get a better listen?

Any other better ideas? What do you do?

guitarmangler

Can the bass player not stand a little closer to you ? Less hassle, and that way much cheaper and easier than all the other options.

In my band currently we have only vox through the PA and monitors. Occasionally I get the other guitar player moaning that he can’t hear me (I suspect that my 1x12 is also ‘beamy’), but he’s on a wireless so can just move over a bit of it bothers him.
Personally, I’d loath to have my amp in the monitors (unless at some point we all decide to go amp less) as I can see it becoming a slippery slope of volume wars and we often don’t get a proper sound check as it is. 

Maybe an extension cab on the bass players side of the stage? 

maltingsaudio

You said you had monitors just put a hint of your guitar in the bassists . 

If your the engineer for the night then the only way to do it is on a wireless or long lead and get out front. (This practice isn’t to be encouraged when you do have a sound engineer ! )

markslade07

My amp going through the monitors isn't ideal, for the reasons you mention, so would rather not (I don't mind a tiny bit going through the PA generally just to spread the sound). 

I did ponder the option of an extension cab over the other side, but it's a reasonable sized additional box to transport and the room we get isn't always great so not sure how often I'd be able to use it...but it's definitely worth considering.

markslade07

markslade07 said:

I did ponder the option of an extension cab over the other side, but it's a reasonable sized additional box to transport and the room we get isn't always great so not sure how often I'd be able to use it...but it's definitely worth considering.

And I don't actually have a working one at the min, I do have a small 15w combo though.....hmmmm....

Danny1969

Basically I always have some of my guitar in the PA speakers, if you don't then you need to be louder on stage which is generally a bad thing .... plus putting some in the PA means an equal spread of guitar both sides of the room.

People often say things like "Oh we don't put the guitars in the PA because it's a vocal PA only" etc  ..... well the guitar actually occupies less bandwidth than the human voice so any speaker that can reproduce the human voice won't struggle with a guitar. Putting kick drum, bass guitar and low frequency keys however is another matter. 

With a simple lineup like one guitar, bass and drums the kick and bass guitar are pretty much the groove sound of the band. The more solid that is the better it will sound which generally means mic'ing the kick for anything other than small rooms 

Once those basics are sorted you can go out front on a long cable or wireless and have a listen but it will never be that accurate because soundchecks are generally snatchs of song played politely with a thought to not frightening punters out the door. Once the gigs kicked off though the drummer will hit harder and the bass played will dig in louder and that carefully adjusted mix at soundcheck will be out the window

I know finding a decent engineer willing to work for pub money is difficult but a lot of bands these days just have someone out front with an iPad keeping an ear on vocal levels and muting effects between songs. I've been in bands that trained up people who had no experience of mixing at all to do those simple things. Basically on a common pub desk like an X18 or QU you can set a basic band patch with EQ, compression, aux sends etc and just recall that every gig and get someone to watch the levels outfront with an iPad

Wazmeister

Use my Matchless.... 

The bass player will hear you alright

robinbowes

In my current band, I play guitar and provide the PA (HK Linear 5 rig, Yamaha TF-Rack mixer, mix done on iPad).

A lot of the time we have an engineer (who brings his own desk - that's a different story) however, when we don't, I go out front for the soundcheck, playing guitar wirelessly. For the gig, I "mix" from stage on the iPad, mounted on my mic stand (did I mention I sing as well? )

I use a Helix, so I have to go through the PA and my onstage sound is purely from the monitors. It works really well as I don't need to think about my guitar sound - just plug into the PA and I'm done.

I'd recommend keeping your amp as quiet as possible on stage and putting it in the PA - it generally results in a better out-front sound.

R.

EricTheWeary

Wireless system really helps. Failing that if the rest of the band will put up with playing something that you can have on a loop. 

Musicwolf

We are a four piece.  Drums, Bass, 2 x guitar, 2 x vocals.  My guitar is from a Helix, the other guitarist has a 20w valve combo.  PA is a digital desk (Mackie DL806), PA is a pair of Yamaha DXR12s, sometimes we add subs.

Into the desk I have kick and 1 x OH mics, Bass (DI), Helix (DI), Combo emulated out (DI), L Vocal mic and B Vox via VoiceLive vocal processor.  To FOH we have vocals, top up guitar (my Helix also goes to an Alto TS210 powered cab for stage vol) and occasionally kick drum.  The OH and bass feeds are purely for IEM.  The singer has a powered monitor in front of him.

The digital mixer means that we can store and recall settings from previous gigs, it also makes it possible to mix from out front using an iPhone or iPad.  If we get chance for a sound check, which is not too often, a couple of us have wireless kit so that we can go and listen from out front.

During the gig I have the desk / iPad close at hand to tweak but, aside from pushing my vocal up for one song where I sing lead, there's not much to do (or that I can do).  We do get lots of comments about the sound being good - which is nice.

For January, where we've no gigs in the diary, I'm hoping to get us into a bigger rehearsal studio where we can work on the sound balance and also optimise the monitoring (get the singer onto IEMs).

Jalapeno

Danny1969 said:

Once those basics are sorted you can go out front on a long cable or wireless and have a listen but it will never be that accurate because soundchecks are generally snatchs of song played politely with a thought to not frightening punters out the door. Once the gigs kicked off though the drummer will hit harder and the bass played will dig in louder and that carefully adjusted mix at soundcheck will be out the window

This is what we do - bassist goes out front and then I do - wireless or long lead.

As @Danny1969 says it's approximate, and when the meat sound baffle arrives (aka punters) the sound changes a lot too.

Get a Behringer mini-monitor for the bassist, and tell the drummer to take it down

markslade07

Thanks for all the advice so far, much appreciated - lots of good stuff here. Unfortunately, we have a fairly new mixer which doesn't have the ability to mix from an ipad...it was something I suggested but ultimately out-voted on...so we're old school knobs and sliders!

@jalapeno I was looking at those mini monitors actually as we only have one main monitor as was looking for something small and compact. They seem to be ok, so we might well invest in a couple of these (IEMs is out too )

Musicwolf

markslade07 said:Unfortunately, we have a fairly new mixer which doesn't have the ability to mix from an ipad...it was something I suggested but ultimately out-voted on...so we're old school knobs and sliders!

The ability to use an iPad is nice, but not essential.  As long as somebody, whom you can trust, is out there at sound check telling you who needs to turn down / up.    I have one of those Behringer monitors (B205D).  When I first tried it out at home I thought that it sounded like shit but it is really effective on stage.  IEMs I use wired - less hassle, better quality, much cheaper.

markslade07

Musicwolf said:

markslade07 said:Unfortunately, we have a fairly new mixer which doesn't have the ability to mix from an ipad...it was something I suggested but ultimately out-voted on...so we're old school knobs and sliders!

I have one of those Behringer monitors (B205D).  When I first tried it out at home I thought that it sounded like shit but it is really effective on stage.  IEMs I use wired - less hassle, better quality, much cheaper.

Yep, I think I'll get one to start with and see how we go....they do look great taking up next to no space so worth a bash

Mark1960

We're a 6 piece - Drums / Bass / 2 x Guitar / Sax / Main Vocals + 3 Backing vocals. All vocals and Sax through the PA. Bass & 2 Guitar amps form the backline. Four monitors for Sax and Vocals. I (Guitar) go out front to set the PA (Monitors off at this stage) on a long lead, and listen. Start with Bass & drums together, then balance guitars on their own, before adding them to the mix. Finally Sax and vocals last. Finally turn up the monitors to suit. Different people do it different ways, but so long as you get the sound you want it doesn't really matter how you do it. We tried mic's on the guitars amps, so people could hear etc but it all got a bit complicated, and feedback became an issue, so we don't bother now.

ICBM

Someone who can be trusted to know what they're listening for out front, and hand signals which the band members must act on and not try to overrule if they think they're not loud enough.

If you have a very directional guitar amp (most are) then don't point it out into the audience, it's doubly counterproductive because it creates an uneven mix out front and the rest of the band can't hear you - point it at an angle across the stage and preferably raise it up or tilt it back. Aiming it somewhere just in front of the other band members and above the heads of anyone in the audience seems to work well.

fastonebaz

We are a 4 piece... drums bass guitar singer. Also have 2 backing vocal mics.  We have a simple old pa with sliders. 

All vocals go through pa.  I also put my guitar through the pa just to get a nice spread of sound not for extra volume. 

I use wireless so during sound check I head out front and listen as we play our sound check song making sure it sounds good from various positions in thr venue.  Usually just have to tweak thr bass or vox a little and we're fine. 

Audience say it sounds great so must be working fine. 

Also on a couple of solos I venture out into thre crowd,  particular when there are hen parties lol and listen as I'm shedding and it sounds great. 

mudslide73

We've got an old-style PA with faders. We have two guitarists and mic up to have a bit of each other in the monitors - it's made a big difference. We put some kick and bass amp through FOH as well as vocals. We use the same soundcheck song so it takes about 2 mins to get it right for the venue. I've trained our bass player to hit my channel switcher for the solo while I'm out front (this has taken much longer than you'd expect) .

Musicwolf

mudslide73 said:

I've trained our bass player to hit my channel switcher for the solo while I'm out front (this has taken much longer than you'd expect) .

I think you'll find that most of us on here are under no illusion as to how long it takes to train a bass player.

Make sure that you have plenty of treats in your pocket to reward him when he gets it right.

mudslide73

Musicwolf said:

mudslide73 said:

I've trained our bass player to hit my channel switcher for the solo while I'm out front (this has taken much longer than you'd expect) .

I think you'll find that most of us on here are under no illusion as to how long it takes to train a bass player.

Make sure that you have plenty of treats in your pocket to reward him when he gets it right.

Both guitars do a solo in our sound check song. He kicked in my lead sound for the wrong one which shows his interest level I suppose.

paulmapp8306

If you dont want guitars FOH via PA but want some in the monitor - you can do that.  Set up as normal (to sound check) then mic your amp, send a little to the monitor mix but non to the main mix.