Decent guitar tones in Reaper with Mooer Radar?

ijonty

Hi folks, I'm kind of a beginner with most of this stuff, but use Reaper and ultimately want to run my pedal board into it.

Someone suggested one way was the use a cabsim into my Focusrite. Then someone else suggested I needed a pre-amp too.

I'm on a budget, so I've got my guitar going into a Donner Juice, then Mooer Radar, into Focusrite, then Reaper. Not sounding great though. Am I making some rookie mistakes? Do I actually need the Donner at all?

I also struggle with knowing what levels to set, as obviously there's a main level for each pedal and Focusrite, and within Reaper too. How do I get the right balance? Which do I turn up or down? Apols if these are dumb questions.

Thanks!

CeeJay

What speakers/monitors are you using, or are you using headphones? You shouldn't need a pre amp as the Focusrite has pre amps built in. 
Have you tried a clean guitar sound into your focusrite? Is that sounding ok?

Keefy

The online blurb describes the Mooer Sweet Juice as 'Sound based on Fender 65 Twin Reverb and Orange AD30'. It has onboard cab sim, but turn that off if using cab IRs in the Radar. You should be able to get a few usable tones form this - could you post some clips?

andy_k

Just my own experience here-
I have a pedalboard set up wit the following,
Tuner >ABY box >Tech 21 flyrig RK > MXR 5150 > HOF mini > Mooer Radar------amp / PA  / interface ?
I run a line out from the ABY into channel 1 of Focusrite, for DI, and a line from the Radar into input 2 of the Focusrite.
Theres a lot of options there, and the Flyrig is mostly used for delay, I get all the drive tone I want from the 5150, the HOF is just there as reverb if I take the Radar off the end--for when I run into an amp.
I use some L shaped M / F jack adapters to allow the signal to be broken for different uses, the HOF has a stereo out, and there is also a breakout at the ABY, I'd have to get a pic to explain it any better.
I was going to use this as a backup option for live use, and tested it in rehearsal, matched my amp sound to the pedals through the PA, it worked well-but is an expensive, easy to thieve sexy looking expensive board to leave knocking around.
I use a Katana as a backup when gigging instead.
The other use for the board is to allow me to record 2 tracks of guitar into Reaper simultaneously, an amp simulated pedal sound, and a DI for use with plugins, it works really well when I take the time to set it up.
I havent used it as much as I expected, TBH a direct line in from my guitar > focusrite, with Amp / speaker sims into Reaper does what I need just as well, the idea with the pedals is to get 2 versions which might work better for doubling tracks, instead of working with a straight duplicate and different amp sims.
Options-so many options, but I know if I spent time with the Radar, I could get pretty much any sound I want, it is great to be able to flip through the IRs which shows just how important that is to a recorded sound.
Sometimes it is better to have reduced options, to let ideas flow, and with Reapers ability to duplicate tracks it is easy to try different things easily.
Great fun all the way though.

andy_k

Just to follow up-
Think of the Radar as a swiss army knife pedal--it does a few different things - not all are needed all the time.
In your case above, I think you need to possibly disable the IR in your pre-amp pedal, and also disable the power amp section in the Radar, if your pre-amp is also emulating a full amp sound. It might clean things up. Your Focusrite is just working as a DA converter-or rather an AD converter, and the pre amp in there just needs to be set to avoid any clipping-this would be digital clipping, you just have to experiment with the levels in Reaper, aim to be recording a signal between -12 and -18 and you'll be golden.
If you have an older distortion / OD pedal, try that instead of your current one-you might be surprised at the effect the Radar has on it, and dont forget you can switch off sections in the Radar, with everything on, it is emulating a Mic'd cab, like I said so many options.
Use templates ( I mean-when you have a session working well in Reaper-save it as a template ), and make some notes with settings, I had to print out the Radar presets to get my head round it, and just dont let the red lights come on on the Focusrite.
You could take a split between your pedals if you used an ABY pedal, which also gives you more options, a stereo pedal would do the same if it has 2 outputs maybe?
Keep experimenting.
cheers
andy k

ijonty

Hi everyone, thanks for your responses.

Just to clarify what I'm trying to do - ideally I'd like to play through my pedal board so that I don't use any plug-ins or amp sims or anything in Reaper itself. Mainly because I find it confusing otherwise. (Maybe I've just not spend enough time with the VST options, but I've got a sound I like from my board when I rehearse so I kinda just want that sound going into Reaper.)

Keefy - that's what I was wondering. If I'm using the Radar and the Juice at the end of my pedalboard, I don't need them both as cabsims? So actually, I could get rid of the Juice, and just use the Radar to give me the cab sim? And then my pedal board (Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS, Neunaber reverb) would go into the Radar, then into the Focusrite?

Andy K - I thing you're probably way more professional than I am, so I don't quite follow some of your comments about the ABY. Are you also saying that I don't need the Juice, and that I should also disable the power amp in my Radar? Or only disable the power amp in the Radar if I use the Juice alongside it?

And the OD pedal - what did you mean about an older one?

Thanks again folks!

Branshen

Try turning off the donner cab sim and just use the mooer cab sim. Don't double up on cab simulations. 

Keefy

ijonty said:

,,,

Keefy - that's what I was wondering. If I'm using the Radar and the Juice at the end of my pedalboard, I don't need them both as cabsims? So actually, I could get rid of the Juice, and just use the Radar to give me the cab sim? And then my pedal board (Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS, Neunaber reverb) would go into the Radar, then into the Focusrite?

,,,

Branshen said:

Try turning off the donner cab sim and just use the mooer cab sim. Don't double up on cab simulations. 

You just need one amp sim and one cab sim - e.g amp sim in Donner, cab sim only in Radar. Then use your pedal board as though you were plugging it into your usual amp and cab. This is pretty much what I do, but with different boxes.

ijonty

Keefy said:

ijonty said:

,,,

Keefy - that's what I was wondering. If I'm using the Radar and the Juice at the end of my pedalboard, I don't need them both as cabsims? So actually, I could get rid of the Juice, and just use the Radar to give me the cab sim? And then my pedal board (Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS, Neunaber reverb) would go into the Radar, then into the Focusrite?

,,,

Branshen said:

Try turning off the donner cab sim and just use the mooer cab sim. Don't double up on cab simulations. 

You just need one amp sim and one cab sim - e.g amp sim in Donner, cab sim only in Radar. Then use your pedal board as though you were plugging it into your usual amp and cab. This is pretty much what I do, but with different boxes.

Ah, so maybe this is me being ignorant and not knowing the difference between amp sims and cab sims? Would the Radar do both those things without the Donner at all?

andy_k

''Andy K - I thing you're probably way more professional than I am, so I don't quite follow some of your comments about the ABY. Are you also saying that I don't need the Juice, and that I should also disable the power amp in my Radar? Or only disable the power amp in the Radar if I use the Juice alongside it?

And the OD pedal - what did you mean about an older one?''

thanks, but i'm by no means a pro,
An ABY, is just a switchable splitter, A or B, or A and B, I put one in front of my pedalboard, A goes through pedals, B goes direct to Focusrite input 2.
I use gain pedal-into Radar, which is acting as pre-amp, and Radar does power amp, and Mic'd speaker, which then also goes into Focusrite input 1, 
I set up 2 tracks in Reaper-one is input one, one is input 2, arm both-and record.
I then get DI of guitar on input 1, and amp simulated pedals on input 2, job done.
I'm not familiar with your Juice pedal-but if it has speaker sim, and is an amp in a box, you dont need the Radar.
Or you could ditch it completely, and use your other pedals into Radar, for the full use of the Radar, 
(Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS ), try just the guvnor  >Radar first, it should do the trick.
I would use the reverb after all amp and cab sims, and probably just add it to the track in Reaper.
You would need to set levels on each input on the Focusrite to suit the input-make them go red, then back off until they dont go red.
Ideally-aim for a reading of  -12---   -18 on the recorded track, but you can do this after the fact with clip gain in Reaper-just dont let the Focusrite clip to start with.
cheers
andy k

Keefy

ijonty said:

Keefy said:

ijonty said:

,,,

Keefy - that's what I was wondering. If I'm using the Radar and the Juice at the end of my pedalboard, I don't need them both as cabsims? So actually, I could get rid of the Juice, and just use the Radar to give me the cab sim? And then my pedal board (Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS, Neunaber reverb) would go into the Radar, then into the Focusrite?

,,,

Branshen said:

Try turning off the donner cab sim and just use the mooer cab sim. Don't double up on cab simulations. 

You just need one amp sim and one cab sim - e.g amp sim in Donner, cab sim only in Radar. Then use your pedal board as though you were plugging it into your usual amp and cab. This is pretty much what I do, but with different boxes.

Ah, so maybe this is me being ignorant and not knowing the difference between amp sims and cab sims? Would the Radar do both those things without the Donner at all?

The effect of pre-amps, power amps, and speaker cabs can all be simulated by various means - analog modelling, digital modelling/profiling, impulse responses (IRs). You need to know which things your gadgets are doing, and which work best for you.

ijonty

Keefy said:

ijonty said:

Keefy said:

ijonty said:

,,,

Keefy - that's what I was wondering. If I'm using the Radar and the Juice at the end of my pedalboard, I don't need them both as cabsims? So actually, I could get rid of the Juice, and just use the Radar to give me the cab sim? And then my pedal board (Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS, Neunaber reverb) would go into the Radar, then into the Focusrite?

,,,

Branshen said:

Try turning off the donner cab sim and just use the mooer cab sim. Don't double up on cab simulations. 

You just need one amp sim and one cab sim - e.g amp sim in Donner, cab sim only in Radar. Then use your pedal board as though you were plugging it into your usual amp and cab. This is pretty much what I do, but with different boxes.

Ah, so maybe this is me being ignorant and not knowing the difference between amp sims and cab sims? Would the Radar do both those things without the Donner at all?

The effect of pre-amps, power amps, and speaker cabs can all be simulated by various means - analog modelling, digital modelling/profiling, impulse responses (IRs). You need to know which things your gadgets are doing, and which work best for you.

I think you've hit the nail on the head - I've no real idea what my own pedals do! Sounds like the simplest option is to just use my Guv'nor (and comp and TS) into the Radar, and try to get a decent sound from that, rather than confusing things further with the Juice?

Keefy

ijonty said:

Keefy said:

ijonty said:

Keefy said:

ijonty said:

,,,

Keefy - that's what I was wondering. If I'm using the Radar and the Juice at the end of my pedalboard, I don't need them both as cabsims? So actually, I could get rid of the Juice, and just use the Radar to give me the cab sim? And then my pedal board (Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS, Neunaber reverb) would go into the Radar, then into the Focusrite?

,,,

Branshen said:

Try turning off the donner cab sim and just use the mooer cab sim. Don't double up on cab simulations. 

You just need one amp sim and one cab sim - e.g amp sim in Donner, cab sim only in Radar. Then use your pedal board as though you were plugging it into your usual amp and cab. This is pretty much what I do, but with different boxes.

Ah, so maybe this is me being ignorant and not knowing the difference between amp sims and cab sims? Would the Radar do both those things without the Donner at all?

The effect of pre-amps, power amps, and speaker cabs can all be simulated by various means - analog modelling, digital modelling/profiling, impulse responses (IRs). You need to know which things your gadgets are doing, and which work best for you.

I think you've hit the nail on the head - I've no real idea what my own pedals do! Sounds like the simplest option is to just use my Guv'nor (and comp and TS) into the Radar, and try to get a decent sound from that, rather than confusing things further with the Juice?

Definitely try that - don't be afraid to twiddle all the knobs etc!

ijonty

andy_k said:

Or you could ditch it completely, and use your other pedals into Radar, for the full use of the Radar, 
(Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS ), try just the guvnor  >Radar first, it should do the trick.
I would use the reverb after all amp and cab sims, and probably just add it to the track in Reaper.
You would need to set levels on each input on the Focusrite to suit the input-make them go red, then back off until they dont go red.
Ideally-aim for a reading of  -12---   -18 on the recorded track, but you can do this after the fact with clip gain in Reaper-just dont let the Focusrite clip to start with.
cheers
andy k

Maybe this is my best option. Take the reverb pedal out of the chain, and run the rest into the radar, push the Focusrite into the red, then dial back a bit. Once I've got that, adjust the level in Reaper to the reading you suggest in the recorded track.

One final thing about the Radar - it has an overall output setting that you get by a single click (rather than a 'hold' for the detailed menus). Do you have that on full 100%, or dialled down?

Cheers!

J

Branshen

ijonty said:

Keefy said:

ijonty said:

,,,

Keefy - that's what I was wondering. If I'm using the Radar and the Juice at the end of my pedalboard, I don't need them both as cabsims? So actually, I could get rid of the Juice, and just use the Radar to give me the cab sim? And then my pedal board (Diamond comp, Marshal Guv'nor, TS, Neunaber reverb) would go into the Radar, then into the Focusrite?

,,,

Branshen said:

Try turning off the donner cab sim and just use the mooer cab sim. Don't double up on cab simulations. 

You just need one amp sim and one cab sim - e.g amp sim in Donner, cab sim only in Radar. Then use your pedal board as though you were plugging it into your usual amp and cab. This is pretty much what I do, but with different boxes.

Ah, so maybe this is me being ignorant and not knowing the difference between amp sims and cab sims? Would the Radar do both those things without the Donner at all?

The difference between an amp sim and a cab sim is exactly what the names suggest. One simulates the amp in a stack, the other simulates a speaker cabinet in a stack.

This is just a personal opinion, the amp sims usually add the grit (which is why some people get success using dirt boxes in lieu of them), amongst other things to the sound and the cab sims EQ it (most noticeably a reduction of the high end, removing fizzy distortion and plinky high end).

Cab sims have come a long way to make direct signals sound good (i.e. like an amp), but running two cab sims is like miking your guitar cab and running it into another cab before recording it.

andy_k

Re::- setting recording levels.
It makes sense to me, to 1--get the sound you like, use headphones from the Radar to get it close to how you want it.
2-- set level on Focusrite to point where it does not clip input, ie:- well below red light comes on.
3---check record level in Reaper, if level is well above -12, or is close to 0, reduce level on Focusrite.
Aim to RECORD at optimum, which is -12  -----   -18, which allows plenty of headroom in final mixing. Any processing in Reaper can add level, and this also allows track to be mixed with automation to make levels dynamic throughout track, for levels to increase during solos for example.
The Radar will have a volume control, which is probably set to its own optimum, so using that to control input level may work better or worse than doing it with input level on Focusrite, it is something you will have to work out.
It helps to make a note when you get it right, as using different guitars or pedal settings will also be changing output levels into your interface.
Once the signal is recorded into Reaper, the tracks level can be turned up or down with clip gain, this is not by using the fader--this is the signal pre-fader. I try to set my sessions up with faders always at 0, The final mixing is done by using automation, but I start with a static mix balance with all faders at 0. This is sometimes referred to as Gain staging, but basically every EQ, or compression that is added to a track will increase the tracks volume, which has to be compensated by reducing the tracks volume, so that when all tracks are mixed together-in busses, and finally the Master track, or 2 bus, the final level allows for some mastering and limiting to arrive at a final level of appx -14 LUFS, for use on streaming services or digital distribution.
It is a complicated chain, which is much easier if the level is set correctly at the very beginning. A solo guitar track is heard at a very different level than the same track in a full mix.
Its all good fun.

ijonty

Thanks everyone. I'm not on the forums very often, but whenever I have a question, I'm always really impressed with how helpful people are. Cheers!

ijonty

Hi I'm back with the same question. When I last asked this, I ended up getting a good sound thanks to all your advice. But now for some reason, I do exactly the same, and it sounds awful. Guitar into board, into Radar, into Focusrite. No vst in Reaper. (Not using the Donner pre-amp).

Actually, as I write this, there's a slight chance that my Cioks that powers the board could be the problem. I re-organised the power cables, so if somehow I am now not connecting the correct pedal to the correct Cioks voltage output, could that make the sound nasty? I think there's a website somewhere that tells you what each pedal takes in terms of power - can anyone remind me?

andy_k

The Power List | stinkfoot.se
 
I think the Radar is a bit fussy with power, try it with the proper adaptor, it might make a difference.

GrahamG

ijonty said:

Hi I'm back with the same question. When I last asked this, I ended up getting a good sound thanks to all your advice. But now for some reason, I do exactly the same, and it sounds awful. Guitar into board, into Radar, into Focusrite. No vst in Reaper. (Not using the Donner pre-amp).

Actually, as I write this, there's a slight chance that my Cioks that powers the board could be the problem. I re-organised the power cables, so if somehow I am now not connecting the correct pedal to the correct Cioks voltage output, could that make the sound nasty? I think there's a website somewhere that tells you what each pedal takes in terms of power - can anyone remind me?

ijonty,i'm following a similar path to you,in trying home recording for the 1st time(corona isolation syndrome ),in one of your posts you mention "the Reaper guy",who are you referring to ?.
As usual a lot of great help in this thread,i had another recording thread going & I also received a heap of help from another Forum member.

ijonty

Hi @GrahamG ; - happy to pass on what little I know! I just meant the guy in the official Reaper videos, like this one:

https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php#oi6TqEYENUQ