12 fret Acoustics with cutaway

dean111music

Hello

I'm going to be off to Coda in the next few weeks to try a loads of acoustics. My mind was on an OM or 000 but after diving into this world more of research I have discovered that 12 fret guitars could be a good shout.

I'm 5 ft 9 and have recently discovered i'm suffering with RSI in both arms. It has been mentioned to me that a shorter scale length guitar would be better and I should try 12 fret. There are more choices out there and i'm looking forward to try a few. 

But i will need a cutaway.

Lowden are now doing S, F and O shape in 12 fret, Taylor do a big range too. 

But having a more comfortable experience playing should in theory help with this?

Any one experience with 12 fret guitars? 

MichaelWatts

Sure thing, 

I love 12 fret guitars and I've definitely found them more comfortable than 14 frets. To be honest I prefer the sound too, the bridge position in the sweet spot of the lower bout and the neck join at the octave really does make a difference. My signature Kostal guitar is a 12-fret cutaway, there's more info here.

dean111music

Thanks so much @MichaelWatts stunning guitar.

Im really interested to hear and feel the differences. Coda have stock of lowden and taylor and I can A/B them against the 14th models.

any other brands in reasonable budget? I guess Custom order can be made with any brand but off the shelf? 

dean111music

https://youtu.be/8e_FtYuJ2yE

https://youtu.be/1dqQJpwBSSc

mgaw

both sound lovely Dean

GTC

Sorry to hear about the RSI. However, 12 frets to the body doesn't mean a shorter scale length. It just means that the bridge is pushed further back giving more string vibration area over the soundboard with the potential of a richer, fuller tone.

For RSI issues a shorter scale length could help but I would also recommend ensuring the guitar is properly set-up, use of lighter strings (e.g. Newtone Heritage) and good technique and posture when playing. A guitar support (e.g. Dynarette or Neck-Up) can help with the latter.

I've got a custom Avalon 12-fretter with a cutaway. Lovely guitar but I wouldn't say it is any easier to play than a 14-fretter of similar dimensions.

MichaelWatts

dean111music said:

Thanks so much @MichaelWatts stunning guitar.

Im really interested to hear and feel the differences. Coda have stock of lowden and taylor and I can A/B them against the 14th models.

any other brands in reasonable budget? I guess Custom order can be made with any brand but off the shelf? 

It depends on your budget but I know that Rory Dowling at Taran Guitars in Scotland is putting together a beautiful 12-fret for the Holy Grail show in May. I have the feeling it may be a little like this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Db6EpgXBc

All the best

Michael 

ToneControl

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

dean111music

ToneControl said:

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

It’s my forearm that’s the main problem 

ToneControl

dean111music said:

ToneControl said:

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

It’s my forearm that’s the main problem 

possibly the ulnar nerve? I had trouble with mine once
is it your fretting hand?
Is the RSI from playing guitar, or work?

Have you seen a physio?

If not I would, in some towns you can self-refer to an NHS one
Depending on your budget, I'd recommend finding a highly-recommended private one 
Mine does 50/50 NHS and private, but is a genius for how muscles, joints, nevers, ligaments, etc work.
Typically £40-50 for an appointment, then at least you know what's wrong in more detail

I thought I had carpal tunnel years ago based on common sense and GP diagnosis. Now I would (and do) go to the physio first, they are specialists.

It could be a combination of things, I am no expert other than an expert in deciding who can best help me.

If your plucking forearm is a problem, it could be triggered by the edge of the lower bout, is it worse in a T shirt and OK with a thick jumper? If so, one of those forearm rests would help a lot. Also you can get a little sleeve to wear to stop the edge of the guitar bothering you as much when playing in a T shirt.
The angle of the plucking shoulder can be a problem too, position and body size are key to this.
As recommended, a dynarette cushion can help, I use one for all acoustics, and vary my leg position based on the guitar body size.

Have you done a lot of weight training? Just as an example you can get shoulder damage that requires sub acromial decompression, which cause upper arm symptoms. I got it without weight training, I know others who got it from heavy lifting at the gym or manual work above head height. I had muscle wasting a way in my upper arm, and was in pain all the time, sadly the first physio thought it was just laziness. The next doctors thought it was nerve compression, but then they realised it was plain old shoulder damage (it's one of the most common operations performed btw), yet few seem to have heard of it.

dean111music

ToneControl said:

dean111music said:

ToneControl said:

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

It’s my forearm that’s the main problem 

possibly the ulnar nerve? I had trouble with mine once
is it your fretting hand?
Is the RSI from playing guitar, or work?

Have you seen a physio?

If not I would, in some towns you can self-refer to an NHS one
Depending on your budget, I'd recommend finding a highly-recommended private one 
Mine does 50/50 NHS and private, but is a genius for how muscles, joints, nevers, ligaments, etc work.
Typically £40-50 for an appointment, then at least you know what's wrong in more detail

I thought I had carpal tunnel years ago based on common sense and GP diagnosis. Now I would (and do) go to the physio first, they are specialists.

It could be a combination of things, I am no expert other than an expert in deciding who can best help me.

If your plucking forearm is a problem, it could be triggered by the edge of the lower bout, is it worse in a T shirt and OK with a thick jumper? If so, one of those forearm rests would help a lot. Also you can get a little sleeve to wear to stop the edge of the guitar bothering you as much when playing in a T shirt.
The angle of the plucking shoulder can be a problem too, position and body size are key to this.
As recommended, a dynarette cushion can help, I use one for all acoustics, and vary my leg position based on the guitar body size.

Have you done a lot of weight training? Just as an example you can get shoulder damage that requires sub acromial decompression, which cause upper arm symptoms. I got it without weight training, I know others who got it from heavy lifting at the gym or manual work above head height. I had muscle wasting a way in my upper arm, and was in pain all the time, sadly the first physio thought it was just laziness. The next doctors thought it was nerve compression, but then they realised it was plain old shoulder damage (it's one of the most common operations performed btw), yet few seem to have heard of it.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

i was very concerned as my arms where just locking up and was very painful so I couldn’t play.

i saw a chiropractor who eased the pain but could diagnose why. At the time I was doing a lot of body weight exercises which was heavy going on wrist and shoulder. I was also playing and holding the guitar for long periods and shoulder pain was evident.

i do get neck pain and it I get a stiff neck so it’s all triggered fromtgere down to you arms.

i have since then work with a physiotherapist, stopper body weight training and really looked at posture.

im in a much better way but I feel the guitar could make things even easier by short scale and 12 fret with cutaway,

I’m looking forward to trying the lowden S 12 fret with cutaway. Ticks all the boxes? 

ToneControl

dean111music said:

ToneControl said:

dean111music said:

ToneControl said:

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

It’s my forearm that’s the main problem 

possibly the ulnar nerve? I had trouble with mine once
is it your fretting hand?
Is the RSI from playing guitar, or work?

Have you seen a physio?

If not I would, in some towns you can self-refer to an NHS one
Depending on your budget, I'd recommend finding a highly-recommended private one 
Mine does 50/50 NHS and private, but is a genius for how muscles, joints, nevers, ligaments, etc work.
Typically £40-50 for an appointment, then at least you know what's wrong in more detail

I thought I had carpal tunnel years ago based on common sense and GP diagnosis. Now I would (and do) go to the physio first, they are specialists.

It could be a combination of things, I am no expert other than an expert in deciding who can best help me.

If your plucking forearm is a problem, it could be triggered by the edge of the lower bout, is it worse in a T shirt and OK with a thick jumper? If so, one of those forearm rests would help a lot. Also you can get a little sleeve to wear to stop the edge of the guitar bothering you as much when playing in a T shirt.
The angle of the plucking shoulder can be a problem too, position and body size are key to this.
As recommended, a dynarette cushion can help, I use one for all acoustics, and vary my leg position based on the guitar body size.

Have you done a lot of weight training? Just as an example you can get shoulder damage that requires sub acromial decompression, which cause upper arm symptoms. I got it without weight training, I know others who got it from heavy lifting at the gym or manual work above head height. I had muscle wasting a way in my upper arm, and was in pain all the time, sadly the first physio thought it was just laziness. The next doctors thought it was nerve compression, but then they realised it was plain old shoulder damage (it's one of the most common operations performed btw), yet few seem to have heard of it.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

i was very concerned as my arms where just locking up and was very painful so I couldn’t play.

i saw a chiropractor who eased the pain but could diagnose why. At the time I was doing a lot of body weight exercises which was heavy going on wrist and shoulder. I was also playing and holding the guitar for long periods and shoulder pain was evident.

i do get neck pain and it I get a stiff neck so it’s all triggered fromtgere down to you arms.

i have since then work with a physiotherapist, stopper body weight training and really looked at posture.

im in a much better way but I feel the guitar could make things even easier by short scale and 12 fret with cutaway,

I’m looking forward to trying the lowden S 12 fret with cutaway. Ticks all the boxes? 

definitely worth a try, but please try a dynarette cushion, it must be the cheapest thing you can try, but I think they are essential for me with small bodied guitars to get the angle right.

Have you taken a guitar to show the physio how you hold it?

dean111music

I forgot to mention I did buy the NeckUp guitar support.

the maton depth is wider than a Dreadnought so it’s hard to get it in a perfect position.

I haven’t done that yet. But good shout!

GTC

Re your RSI issue - it may be worth looking a the Alexander Technique. It is often thought to be some sort of new-age therapy but it is really just basic common sense. I could bore for ages on the subject and wax lyrical about what it has done for me - but, for now, here's a link to the NHS website if you want to find out more https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/alexander-technique/

When using the neck-up (or Dynarette - I've got both) it is important to pay attention to your posture. It will help if you sit on a hard seat with both feet flat on the floor.

Hope this helps - and does not put you off your pursuit for a new guitar;)

Jalapeno

As mentioned a proper Physio (or Osteo) for diagnosis/treatment. 

Avoid Chiropractors, they'll just ease the pain rather than get to the underlying problems (at best).

ToneControl

Jalapeno said:

As mentioned a proper Physio (or Osteo) for diagnosis/treatment. 

Avoid Chiropractors, they'll just ease the pain rather than get to the underlying problems (at best).

some chiropractors are good for spinal stuff, but not so much for limbs

GTC

GTC said:

Re your RSI issue - it may be worth looking a the Alexander Technique. It is often thought to be some sort of new-age therapy but it is really just basic common sense. I could bore for ages on the subject and wax lyrical about what it has done for me - but, for now, here's a link to the NHS website if you want to find out more https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/alexander-technique/

Physios and chiropractors general just treat the particular issue. What the Alexander Technique does is to address the cause of the issue which, most often, is due ingrained bad habits in body use collected over a lifetime. It is not easy or cheap and doesn't provide an instant fix - but boy is it worth it.

Andy79

Seeing as this is a public forum let’s stick to guitars or science based medicine of which Chiropractic and other pseudo sciences are not part of.  

Maybe before you plunge into a big spend you could try a cheap travel guitar for a while, see if there actually is a benefit to the smaller size

GTC

Andy79 said:

Seeing as this is a public forum let’s stick to guitars or science based medicine of which Chiropractic and other pseudo sciences are not part of.  

I can see where you are coming from but the main issue here appears to be overcoming RSI, particilarly with respect to guitar playing. Therefore it is right and proper to mention possibly more effective alternatives to a new guitar.

Regarding the Alexander Technique - it is certainly not a pseudo-science or new-age mumbo jumbo. It is widely used and proven by musicians to both overcome issues such as RSI and also to improve performance. 

I'll leave it there - but, as I mentioned earlier, I'd never want to put someone off buying a new guitar;) 

GTC

Andy79 said:

Maybe before you plunge into a big spend you could try a cheap travel guitar for a while, see if there actually is a benefit to the smaller size

This isn't a bad suggestion. There a lot of them around for very affordable prices and a smaller scale and/or a 12-fretter with a smaller body could help. In extreme cases of arthritis and RSI I've heard of some accomplished musicians having to resort to a 4-string tenor guitar or  a baritone uke.

the_butler

Not a 12 fret, but I believe Taylor Grand Concerts are 24.75" scale & are small bodied.
They're the ones that end in '2'  so 312c through to 912c