A discussion on the Major Scale

close2u

There are two basic ways of learning Major scale along the full fretboard. Using the CAGED system or using a 3-notes-per-string system.

Using CAGED (actually it should be EDCAG as pattern 1 gives rise to the E chord shape) the 5 patterns look like this:
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/chaucer73/misc/MajorScale5patternsCAGEDsystem_zpsdab3f2bf-1_zpsf623c188.jpg

The CAGED system is intrinsic to these shapes.
Look at pattern 1 - do you see how an E-shape chord sits within?

Look at pattern 2 - do you see how a D-shape chord sits within?

Look at pattern 3 - do you see how a C-shape chord sits within?

Look at pattern 4 - do you see how an A-shape chord sits within?

Look at pattern 5 - do you see how a G-shape chord sits within?

Notes:
In learning & practicing you should always start and end on the lowest root note, cycle around each scale shape several times, and listen for the sound of the root note.

Also listen for the sound of the intervals. The formula for the Major scale is:
Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone.

Each shape has 17 notes. This means that when practicing to a metronome, playing 16th notes, with 4 notes between each click, you should always land back on the root note on the beat.

Start with a down pick and try playing alternate picking. With these patterns you should find you end up on the lowest root note with a down pick each time.

With regard to using the Major scale to improvise ...
It is a melodic scale, and really moves in a different paths to the blues-rock minor pentatonic scale. It's not so much about using licks ... it's more about building melody lines. The vocal melodies of millions of songs are Major scale melodies.
Quick task ... using just pattern 1 of the Major scale how many nursery rhyme song melodies can you play, just by ear and a little bit of experimenting?
Folk and traditional songs tend to be Major scale melodies for the most part too.

Here is me ... a little while ago, having learned all 5 patterns of the Major scale, having a bit of an improv to a Major scale backing track in G. I'm not saying it's perfect - it isn't and my technique is not fantastic either - but it may help to illustrate the melodic nature of the scale.
]

Notice, in a few places, a slightly bluesy-sound comes in ... that's me running out of ideas and inspiration and 'cheating' ... thinking in terms of E minor pentatonic (which is contained entirely within the G Major scale).
I think these sections are really noticeable and also help to illustrate the differences between these two scales and their use.

close2u

E minor pentatonic contained within the G Major scale??
Huh!
How does that work??

Okay. The Major scale is a mode. It is the Ionian mode. So it is the 1st mode. There are 7 modes built directly from the Major scale.

But ... before that ... it is useful to use the Major scale formula, and to know something about a process called harmonising the Major scale.

In all Major keys there are seven 'fundamental' chords found by a process called harmonising the major scale.

The Major scale formula:
Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone
T, T, S, T, T, T, S
or if you prefer Halftone to Semitone:
T, T, H, T, T, T, H
or if you use a numbering system:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,

In the key of G these 7 notes are:
G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

if you cycle this you get ...
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc (imagine it rising in octaves up the neck)

the 7 chords are 3-note chords made up of 3 notes that are each one third apart:

the I chord (root) is made up of 1, 3, 5 (G, B, D) = G Major

the ii chord is made up of 2, 4, 6 (A, C, E) = A minor

the iii chord is made up of 3, 5, 7 (B, D, F#) = B minor

the IV chord is made up of 4, 6, 1 (C, E, G) = C Major

the V chord is made up of 5, 7, 2 (D, F#, A) = D Major

the vi chord is made up of 6, 1, 3 (E, G, = E minor

the vii chord is made up of 7, 2, 4 (F#, A, C) = F# diminished

Note:
I, IV, V = Major
ii, iii, vi = minor
vii = diminished


Now, just as there are 7 fundamental triad chords built from 3rds of the Major scale, so there are 7 modes.
The triads are chords built from 3 notes that are a 3rd apart, each starting from a successive note of the Major scale.
The modes are scales built from all of the seven notes of a Major scale, each starting from a successive note of the Major scale.

G Ionian = G Major as described above.

The 2nd note in G major scale is A.
So there is a scale, starting on the note A, that uses only the same notes as the G Major scale.
But it is not G Major.
And it is not A Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
It is A Dorian.
Formula:
   T, S, T, T, T, S, T
1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, 6 , b7
Notice the b3? This mode is 'minor' in nature.

The 3rd note in G major scale is B.
So there is a scale, starting on the note B, that uses only the same notes as the G Major scale.
But it is not G Major.
And it is not B Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
It is B Phrygian.
Formula:
   S, T, T, T, S, T, T
1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, 6 , b7
Notice the b3? This mode is 'minor' in nature.

The 4th note in G major scale is C.
So there is a scale, starting on the note C, that uses only the same notes as the G major scale.
But it is not G Major.
And it is not C Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
It is C Lydian.
Formula:
   T, T, T, S, T, T, S
1, 2, 3, #4 , 5, 6 , 7

The 5th note in G major scale is D.
So there is a scale, starting on the note D, that uses only the same notes as the G major scale.
But it is not G Major.
And it is not D Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
It is D Mixolydian.
Formula:
   T, T, S, T, T, S, T
1, 2, 3, 4 , 5, 6 , b7

The 6th note in G major scale is E.
So there is a scale, starting on the note E, that uses only the same notes as the G major scale.
But it is not G Major.
And it is not E Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
It is E Aeolian.
Formula:
   T, S, T, T, S, T, T
1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, b6 , b7
Notice the b3? This mode is 'minor' in nature.

The 7th note in G major scale is F#.
So there is a scale, starting on the note F#, that uses only the same notes as the G major scale.
But it is not G Major.
And it is not F# Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
It is F# Locrian.
Formula:
   S, T, T, S, T, T, T
1, b2, b3, 4 , b5, b6 , b7
Notice all those flats? It is best overlooked / ignored for now!!!




So, now to to answer the question ... E minor pentatonic contained within the G Major scale - how does that work?

We have just seen how the 7 modes are derived.
The 1st mode is Ionian. In the key of G Major, this is G Ionian.
The 6th mode is Aeolian. In the key of G Major, this is E Aeolian.
The Aeolian scale is also called 'natural minor'.
It contains a flattened 3rd and is 'minor' in nature.
It is also called the 'relative minor' of the parent Major scale.
So E Aeolian is the relative minor scale of G Ionian.
E minor is the relative minor of G Major.

Here is the G Major scale:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

Here is the E Aeolian scale:
1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, b6 , b7
E, F#, G, A, B, C, D
 
Same notes, different order, different intervals, different sound when emphasising the root note 'tonal centre' of E.

Now, how about making those 7-note scales into a 5-note pentatonic scales.


Here is the G Major scale:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
and the G Major pentatonic scale:
1, 2, 3, 5, 6
G, A, B, D, E


Here is the E minor scale:
1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, b6 , b7
E, F#, G, A, B, C, D
And the E minor pentatonic scale:
E, G, A, B, D


Wow!
The E minor pentatonic scale uses exactly the same 5 notes as the G major pentatonic scale.
And the E minor pentatonic scale is contained entirely within the G Major scale.
Because it is a subset of the 6th mode, the Aeolian mode, of the G Major scale.

close2u

This might be a useful audio comparison.

The link I posted above of me improvising (fumbling) my way through a G Major Scale backing can be compared and contrasted in its tonal characteristics and qualities with other scales:


Here's the same link again in case you skipped it ...
G Major (G Ionian) improv - the 1st mode of G Major


Another G Major improv ...
]

You should really be hearing the nature, the quality, the character of the Major scale now ... the 'majorness' of it ... all 7 notes full of it ...

So, listen closely and compare ...


Here is a link to me playing modally ...
A Aeolian (A minor) improv



Can you hear the differences?


Also, maybe you'd like to compare / contrast 5 note scales ... minor pentatonics in this case ...

this is just C minor pentatonic


this is just B minor pentatonic





Hope someone finds this useful ...

close2u

Where's the chords in them scale shapes man?
Why you calling them E shape, D shape etc?

Ok - take a look.
Just look closesly at this revised set of diagrams.
Imagine laying your 1st finger across as a barre at the lowest fret where notes have been coloured blue and you get barre chords built around the open shape chords of E, D, C, A, G.
And because these are drawn in the key of G, the EDCAG shapes are all G Major chords.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/chaucer73/misc/MajorScale5patternsCAGEDsystemchordshapesblue_zps99afcfd7-1_zps8779fba5.jpg

frankus

so what do you want to discuss?

close2u

Some additional / optional information.

MODES!

This analysis concerns each chord and each mode, in turn, built from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th notes of the G Major scale respectively.

Chord analysis (root note A)
The 2nd chord is made up of 2, 4, 6 (A, C, E) from the G Major scale.
Let’s refer to the A Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

A major scale
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G#
1 - 2 --3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7
A ----- C ------ E

See that the note C is a semi-tone below the C# of the A major scale.
In other words it is a flat third (b3).
So, with reference to the A Major scale, this chord has formula 1, b3, 5.
That formula describes minor chords.
And so this is an A minor chord - by definition.

Modal analysis (root note A)
Look at the A Major scale then the other modal scale with root note A that is the re-ordered (starting from the 2nd) G Major scale.

A Major:
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G#
1 - 2 --3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7
Modal scale:
A - B -- C -- D - E - F# - G
1 - 2 --b3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- b7

So, in this other scale with root note A, there is a flattened 3rd and 7th when referenced to the A Major scale.
That defines what is called Dorian so this scale is A Dorian.

To summarise so far.
We have taken a G Major scale.
We stacked up sets of three notes in 3rds to give chords (harmonising the Major scale).
We know the Major scale is a mode - Ionian - and the 1st chord is a G Major chord.
Then we looked at the G Major scale starting from its 2nd note A.
Because the new start note is A we referenced the A Major scale and found that the chord with a root note A drawn from the G Major scale has formula 1, b3, 5 so is an A minor chord, and the modal scale follows the pattern 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7  and is Dorian.

A similar analysis can be done for all notes of the G Major scale.
And the Major scale of each successive note is the absolute reference point.

Ok so far?

Well, the same analysis applies to each of the notes of the G Major scale.


Chord analysis (root note
The 3rd chord is made up of 3, 5, 7 (B, D, F#) from the G Major scale.
Let’s refer to the B Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

B major scale
B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A#
1 - 2 ---3 --- 4 -- 5 -- 6 -- 7
B ------ D ------ F#

See that the note D is a semi-tone below the D# of the B major scale.
In other words it is a flat third (b3).
So, with reference to the B Major scale, this chord has formula 1, b3, 5.
That formula describes minor chords.
And so this is a B minor chord - by definition.

Modal analysis (root note
Look at the B Major scale then the other modal scale with root note B that is the re-ordered (starting from the 3rd) G Major scale.

B Major scale:
B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A#
1 - 2 ---3 --- 4 - 5 --- 6 -- 7
Modal scale:
B - C -- D -- E - F# - G - A
1 - b2 --b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7

So, in this scale with root note B, there is a flattened 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th when referenced to the B Major scale.
That defines what is called Phrygian so this scale is B Phrygian.



Chord analysis (root note C)
The 4th chord is made up of 4, 6, 1 (C, E, G) from the G Major scale.
Let’s refer to the C Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

C major scale
C - D - E - F - G – A - B
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
C ----- E ---- G

See that these notes fit the 1, 3, 5 formula of a Major chord.
This is a C Major - by definition.

Modal analysis (root note C)
Look at the C Major scale then the other modal scale with root note C that is the re-ordered (starting from the 4th) G Major scale.

C major scale
C - D - E - F - G – A - B
1 - 2 -- 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
Modal scale:
C - D - E – F# - G – A - B
1 - 2 -- 3 -- #4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7

So, in this scale with root note C, there is a sharpened 4th when referenced to the C Major scale.
That defines what is called LYDIAN? so this scale is C LYDIAN.


Chord analysis (root note D)
The 5th chord is made up of 5, 7, 2 (D, F#, A) from the G Major scale.
Let’s refer to the D Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

D major scale
D - E - F# - G - A - B - C#
1 - 2 -- 3 -- 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
D ----- F# ---- A

See that these notes fit the 1, 3, 5 formula of a Major chord.
This is a D Major - by definition.

Modal analysis (root note D)
Look at the D Major scale then the other modal scale with root note D that is the re-ordered (starting from the 5th) G Major scale.

D major scale
D - E - F# - G - A - B - C#
1 - 2 -- 3 -- 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
Modal scale:
D - E – F# - G – A – B - C
1 - 2 - 3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 - b7

So, in this scale with root note D, there is a flattened 7th when referenced to the C Major scale.
That defines what is called Mixolydian so this scale is D Mixolydian.


Chord analysis (root note E)
The 6th chord is made up of 6, 1, 3 (E, G, from the G Major scale.
Let’s refer to the E Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

E major scale
E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D#
1 - 2 --- 3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7
E ----- G ------ B

See that the note G is a semi-tone below the G# of the E major scale.
In other words it is a flat third (b3).
So, with reference to the E Major scale, this chord has formula 1, b3, 5.
That formula describes minor chords.
And so this is an E minor chord - by definition.

Modal analysis (root note E)
Look at the E Major scale then the other modal scale with root note E that is the re-ordered (starting from the 3rd) G Major scale.

E major scale
E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D#
1 - 2 --- 3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7
Modal scale:
E - F# - G – A - B - C - D
1 - 2 --b3 -- 4 -- 5 - b6 -- b7

So, in this scale with root note E, there is a flattened 3rd, 6th and 7th when referenced to the E Major scale.
That defines what is called Aeolian so this scale is E Aeolian.


Chord analysis (root note F#)
The 7th chord is made up of 7, 2, 4 (F#, A, C) from the G Major scale.
Let’s refer to the F# Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

F# major scale
F# - G# - A# – B – C# - D# - E#
1 --- 2 --- 3 --- 4 --- 5 -- 6 --- 7
F# ----- A ------ C

See that the note A is a semi-tone below the A# of the F# major scale.
In other words it is a flat third (b3).
See that the note C is a semi-tone below the A# of the C# major scale.
In other words it is a flat fifth (b5).
So, with reference to the F# Major scale, this chord has formula 1, b3, b5.
That formula describes diminished chords.
And so this is an F# diminished chord - by definition.

Modal analysis (root note F#)
Look at the E Major scale then the other modal scale with root note E that is the re-ordered (starting from the 3rd) G Major scale.

F# major scale
F# - G# - A# – B – C# - D# - E#
1 --- 2 --- 3 --- 4 --- 5 -- 6 --- 7
Modal scale:
F# - G --- A --- B -- C --- D -- E
1 -- b2 -- b3 -- 4 -- b5 - b6 -- b7

So, in this scale with root note E, there is a flattened 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th when referenced to the F# Major scale.
That defines what is called Locrian so this scale is F# Locrian.

It is also very yukky and seldom used.

close2u

frankus said:

so what do you want to discuss?

Okay ... not discussion ....
How about these:

discourse

treatise

essay

sermon

??

frankus

Have you read Mick Goodrick's Advancing Guitarist? I'd really recommend it for accelerating through the foot hills of the stuff you're exploring here.

ultimately I found blogging a better way to get this stuff down:

http://owowithurts.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/whats-better-than-one-cycle-of-fifths.html

so I could forget about it and focus on getting people's pulses racing

viz

Yep I have whiled away some quality time on frankus's blogs and Clarky's stuff on scales and chords. It's really good.

By the way if you are so inclined, have a look at (and listen to if you're at a PC) this summary I made, if you just fancy a browse through the different scales.

http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes 2014_02_18 - for GTV.xlsx

EricTheWeary

I have a vague argument in my head ,then, about CAGED.

This says at the extremes there are two types of guitarists:

CAGED (finding the notes quickly)-----------------------------------------------------------Guitarist ( playing the instrument)

So,at the one end you have fluid jazz guitarists, I guess. At the other my example would be Dick Dale. If you played a Dick Dale melody using CAGED it would be kind of wrong. Say, Miserlou which is basically up and down the low E string. You could find all the notes in a single CAGED position but it wouldn't sound the same, it wouldn't take into account the sonic ( may not be the right word) properties of bouncing everything up and down a single string ( and would make the accompanying picking hand technique much more difficult to achieve).  

Somewhere inbetween you might have country players incorporating open strings where they wouldn't flow in CAGED or Billy Gibbons choosing places to play notes cause he gets better pinch harmonics in those places. Whammy bar dives, behind the nut bends, pinging harmonics - quite a few guitar techniques that rely on how guitars are built to get the best sounds rather than the quickest places to find notes. Whilst these aren't musical in the same sense as a melody played on a piano they are the kind of forms of expression that make the guitar unique.

So, CAGED ( or similar systems) make sense of the fretboard to give easy access to notes like a pianist ( on piano or many, many instruments there is only one place to find any given note unlike a guitar which might have 5 places to find the exact same note)but in doing so are they losing the unique qualities of the guitar? Is understanding and being able to play using CAGED a failure to understand what is exciting and unique about the guitar?



 

~O)

frankus

I remember putting these down for Clarky:

http://clarkyonchords.blogspot.co.uk/
http://clarkyonscales.blogspot.co.uk/

if I could figure out how to hand them over - someone could curate the stuff he's added here since

viz

EricTheWeary said:

I have a vague argument in my head ,then, about CAGED.

This says at the extremes there are two types of guitarists:

CAGED (finding the notes quickly)-----------------------------------------------------------Guitarist ( playing the instrument)

So,at the one end you have fluid jazz guitarists, I guess. At the other my example would be Dick Dale. If you played a Dick Dale melody using CAGED it would be kind of wrong. Say, Miserlou which is basically up and down the low E string. You could find all the notes in a single CAGED position but it wouldn't sound the same, it wouldn't take into account the sonic ( may not be the right word) properties of bouncing everything up and down a single string ( and would make the accompanying picking hand technique much more difficult to achieve).  

Somewhere inbetween you might have country players incorporating open strings where they wouldn't flow in CAGED or Billy Gibbons choosing places to play notes cause he gets better pinch harmonics in those places. Whammy bar dives, behind the nut bends, pinging harmonics - quite a few guitar techniques that rely on how guitars are built to get the best sounds rather than the quickest places to find notes. Whilst these aren't musical in the same sense as a melody played on a piano they are the kind of forms of expression that make the guitar unique.

So, CAGED ( or similar systems) make sense of the fretboard to give easy access to notes like a pianist ( on piano or many, many instruments there is only one place to find any given note unlike a guitar which might have 5 places to find the exact same note)but in doing so are they losing the unique qualities of the guitar? Is understanding and being able to play using CAGED a failure to understand what is exciting and unique about the guitar?



 

~O)

not only unique but actually I think it's a bit unhelpful and am not sure what it achieves. I've never got on with CAGED because I just can't see the benefit of the intermediatory positions or the flow of it. For me, it's far more important to understand inversions, because with them you can really make music.

Eg, if you play a standard E chord at the nut, that's the root. It has an E at the bottom. 1st inversion is playing a C-shape chord, barred at the 4th fret. And 2nd inversion is playing an A-shaped chord, barred at the 7th.

If you start with A, the root is x02220, the 1st inversion is a G-shape barred at the 2nd fret (basically x42225, and the 3rd inversion is a D-shape barred at the 7th.

So rather then CAGED, I think of ECA and AGD. And those 2 pattern groups can be used all the way up the fretboard.

Once you get the music of inversions in your ear, you can suddenly play chords with better voicing. Eg in We are the Champions, he goes, "and we'll keep on fighting till the end"; and on 'end' it's Bb -> D (b9); that D chord isn't a simple D barred at the 5th fret; it's a first inversion because it has an F# at the bottom, so it's better to play it barred at the 2nd fret, as a C-shaped chord (moving the middle finger up a fret and back down for that temporary flat 9).

frankus

I think of the guitar as several instruments

5 Pianos - CAGED
2 Saxophones - 4 NPS
1 Banjo - First 4 frets, open and behind the nut.

There are a load of others... each has it's applications.

EricTheWeary

frankus said:

1 Banjo - First 4 frets, open and behind the nut.

Hence the need for the Reverse Capo - instantly changes any guitar into a banjo by making the notes above the capo unplayable.
:ar!

frankus

lol